Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'

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The Times

Societies worse off 'when they have God on their side'
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent

RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.

According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.

The study counters the view of believers that religion is necessary to provide the moral and ethical foundations of a healthy society.

It compares the social peformance of relatively secular countries, such as Britain, with the US, where the majority believes in a creator rather than the theory of evolution. Many conservative evangelicals in the US consider Darwinism to be a social evil, believing that it inspires atheism and amorality.

Many liberal Christians and believers of other faiths hold that religious belief is socially beneficial, believing that it helps to lower rates of violent crime, murder, suicide, sexual promiscuity and abortion. The benefits of religious belief to a society have been described as its “spiritual capital”. But the study claims that the devotion of many in the US may actually contribute to its ills.

The paper, published in the Journal of Religion and Society, a US academic journal, reports: “Many Americans agree that their churchgoing nation is an exceptional, God-blessed, shining city on the hill that stands as an impressive example for an increasingly sceptical world.

“In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies.

“The United States is almost always the most dysfunctional of the developing democracies, sometimes spectacularly so.”

Gregory Paul, the author of the study and a social scientist, used data from the International Social Survey Programme, Gallup and other research bodies to reach his conclusions.

He compared social indicators such as murder rates, abortion, suicide and teenage pregnancy.

The study concluded that the US was the world’s only prosperous democracy where murder rates were still high, and that the least devout nations were the least dysfunctional. Mr Paul said that rates of gonorrhoea in adolescents in the US were up to 300 times higher than in less devout democratic countries. The US also suffered from “ uniquely high” adolescent and adult syphilis infection rates, and adolescent abortion rates, the study suggested.

Mr Paul said: “The study shows that England, despite the social ills it has, is actually performing a good deal better than the USA in most indicators, even though it is now a much less religious nation than America.”

He said that the disparity was even greater when the US was compared with other countries, including France, Japan and the Scandinavian countries. These nations had been the most successful in reducing murder rates, early mortality, sexually transmitted diseases and abortion, he added.

Mr Paul delayed releasing the study until now because of Hurricane Katrina. He said that the evidence accumulated by a number of different studies suggested that religion might actually contribute to social ills. “I suspect that Europeans are increasingly repelled by the poor societal performance of the Christian states,” he added.

He said that most Western nations would become more religious only if the theory of evolution could be overturned and the existence of God scientifically proven. Likewise, the theory of evolution would not enjoy majority support in the US unless there was a marked decline in religious belief, Mr Paul said.

“The non-religious, proevolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

M. V. (M.V.), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:05 (twenty years ago)

worse with religion or religious conservatives?

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:17 (twenty years ago)

Do religious liberals believe they have God on their side?

M. V. (M.V.), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:20 (twenty years ago)

Why do I have a strange feeling that despite Gregory Paul's not terribly scientific findings that most American's aren't about to stop believing in God.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:24 (twenty years ago)

I don't like these correlary "studies". You can use correlaries to prove just about anything if you pick the right one. "LOOK CITIES WITH HIGH % OF DIM SUM RESTAURANTS AND LOW SUMMER TEMPERATURES HAVE THE HIGHEST RATES OF SYPHILLIS!"

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:27 (twenty years ago)

IT'S SCIENCE.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:28 (twenty years ago)

proof that a decline in numbers of pirates causes global warming:
http://www.venganza.org/piratesarecool4.jpg

Martin Skidmore (Martin Skidmore), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:31 (twenty years ago)

Wow there were really only 17 pirates in the year 2000. I had no idea their numbers had declined so dramatically.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:33 (twenty years ago)

note that the last data point is only for 2000.

In this post-9/11, post-Katrina world, who knows how much piracy has been flourishing?

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:34 (twenty years ago)

According to the stuntman on those movie previews IT'S EVERYWHERE!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:35 (twenty years ago)

Unfortunately I do not believe temperatures have dropped so apparently that chart is off.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:36 (twenty years ago)

Zounds!

xpost

kingfish superman ice cream (kingfish 2.0), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:37 (twenty years ago)

the pope called australia a godless country. theyre doing ok.

sunny successor (he hates my guts, we had a fight) (katharine), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:47 (twenty years ago)

damn straight we're godless

jimmy glass (electricsound), Tuesday, 27 September 2005 22:48 (twenty years ago)

It's a shame, but too many people seem to need it pounded into their heads that correlation != causation, Alex. Correlations seem to constantly be used to promote junk science, where nothing at all has actually been proven.

Tree of Stars, Tuesday, 27 September 2005 23:36 (twenty years ago)

I think the hurdle of proving positive causation in this context is pretty much insurmountable, and that the conclusion stated in the headline is poisoned by at least three logical fallacies--the fallacy of small numbers, the post hoc fallacy, and the fallacy of the undistributed middle. But the refutation of an assertion of causality (in this case, the assertion that, absent supernaturally authoritative rules of conduct, secular societies fail through decadence) can be accomplished simply by disproving the "facts" the assertion presumes. So the concluding sentences,

“The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator.

“The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted.”

are correct. Moreover, anyone who claims that Paul has constructed a straw man has simply not been paying attention to the current prevailing American zeitgeist.

Fundamentalists speak of the descent of God's wrath on secular societies. Liberal and moderate religionists tout supernatural rules for their pragmatic necessity. Looks to me like Paul's study is a pretty damn good refutation of both groups' assertions.

M. V. (M.V.), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 01:49 (twenty years ago)

This is really fucking idiotic. How exactly does religious belief actually increase the U.S.'s social ills? If anything, a much more obvious culprit would be the tendency toward a more unfettered form of capitalism (which is indeed quite secular) that tends to push us away from social programs.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:07 (twenty years ago)

Why do the number of pirates go from 35,000 to 45,000 to 20,000? That's just shoddy work, that is.

milozauckerman (miloaukerman), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:11 (twenty years ago)

The 'Godless society' of the Europeans is going to experience a social disaster of a sort simply because they don't have any children. I can't help thinking that that has something to do with religion.

Jur Carias, Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:14 (twenty years ago)

Yeah only as far as the socials ills = christianity >>> weak funding for effective sex education/contraception/etc >>> higher rates of abortion/STD infection.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:15 (twenty years ago)

How exactly does religious belief actually increase the U.S.'s social ills?

I don't know that it does. But, if it does, one possible reason might be that it infantilizes our ethical sensibilities by dissociating critical thinking from moral choices.

M. V. (M.V.), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:16 (twenty years ago)

What does critical thinking have to do with morality? Right and wrong aren't things you can prove with reason.

Tony Curtis, Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:19 (twenty years ago)

Yeah only as far as the socials ills = christianity >>> weak funding for effective sex education/contraception/etc >>> higher rates of abortion/STD infection.

-- Alex in SF (clobberthesauru...), September 27th, 2005.

Sure, but also poor educaiton and social safety net = higher crime, poor healthcare = higher infant mortality rate, etc. My point is the article is a bunch of crap piled on top of maybe a tiny piece of worthwhile information.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:21 (twenty years ago)

Yes well no one disagrees with the fact that it's a bunch of crap. I mean look at the PIRATE GRAPH!

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:23 (twenty years ago)

poor educaiton

Case in point.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:24 (twenty years ago)

M.V.'s points are also correct though. But those hellfire and damnation arguments are so stupid that most people can refute them without engaging in a very weak "scientific" study.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:25 (twenty years ago)

Wouldn't it also be the case that people in america are more religious/conservative because of all our problems? Like, if our country is constantly teetering on the brink of destruction/sin, as a lot of people seem to think it is, maybe you need god to make sense of it all and/or protect you from the carnage?

stewart downes (sdownes), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:28 (twenty years ago)

It's odd that the crux of this study is simply that the US is more religious and has greater social problems that other liberal democracies. But it's hardly groundbreaking to point out that America is the only liberal democracy with such a high proportion of theists. It would be better to spend time trying to understand why there is an American exception in religion as well as politics, rather than studies like this which are too easily derided by the groups who believe the US is a "God-blessed, shining city on the hill".

fr, Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:48 (twenty years ago)

I realize Iceland is always the exception in any global study, but it is a very religious country that has, per capita, a very small amount of the above crimes listed. Then again, the population is a spit in the ocean compared to the U.S.'s or Japan's or the UK's.

donut hallivallerieburtonelli omg lol (donut), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 02:53 (twenty years ago)

I think it speaks volumes about the intellectual diversity in America that studies come out calling America a country that is essentially filled with Bible thumpers and religious zealouts when we're currently fighting a war against people who think we're the Great Satan and are constantly peddling porn and hedonism to the world.

The main argument is flimsy as what this man considers a "worse" society to be is vague at best. America is still the most prosperous country in the world. He also doesn't tell if belief in Darwinism or atheism necessarily correlates with a great society. Considering that I've read that East Germany had the highest rates for belief in Darwinism in the world I doubt he'd want to publish that as it'd make his whole theory sound unstable. Considering that church attendence in America was at it's highest in the late-50s and that England was at its peak during the now unfashionable era of "Victorian values" you could also make the exact opposite case using the same exact same countries. Are you tell me that crime rates and abortions went up during the 1960's and 1970's because people were getting more and more religious in America? Australia is one of the only other countries I've read about that seems to have Christian conservatives in the American vain. Are they "struggling" too? No mention at all of the millions of people murdered or forced to have abortions in atheistic communist countries during the 20th century and today as well.

Cunga (Cunga), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 03:44 (twenty years ago)

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频专 (eman), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 03:45 (twenty years ago)

i'd like to believe that this is true, but this survey's methodology is a bit suspect.

not to mention that it's just a rehash of arguments we've heard since The Enlightenment.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 04:52 (twenty years ago)

seriously if i had to pick a central villain for america's ills, then i'd sooner pick racism than religion. and i'm saying this as someone who is decidedly NOT sympathetic to the american religious right.

Eisbär (llamasfur), Wednesday, 28 September 2005 05:00 (twenty years ago)


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