Catherine McKinnon: classic or dud?

people forget that she is mostly a legal scholar, and her scholarship is well written, taut, and has a genuine interest in issues of common law.

and i think we need to reevaulate the whole PORN IS FREEDOM, WOMEN WHO FUCK ON CAMERA=HERO schtick people are pulling, esp when the mechanichs of a patriachal state are involved...

(insert tempering ppgh about sex being good, and porn being liberating sometimes, and all that)

Damn, I comprehensively misspelled her name, which is Catharine MacKinnon.

she played the good cop in that anti-porn dynamic duo with Andrea Dworkin. You know, the more mainstream "normal" looking one who seems reasonable on the surface. Still just as wrong.

i think she was less wrong then people think she was, and i think that people who read her or dwarkin get a whole different view of them

Absolutely bloody classic. The mechanics of her/Dworkin's porn law for Minneapolis in 1983 were nigh-on faultless - and hers is one of the few arguments against porn that actually does not fuck around with the First Amendment.

Oasis said it best:
The dumb bitch don't know shit.
As for that pig Andrea Dworkin, her obsese and smelly other half... what a fucking laugh. They are two examples of why men don't even want to try to understand the psche of dumb bitches. I am sure the rotting corpse of that bloated whale is better off now than it ever was. What a fucking crock!

MacKinnon's okay - not exactly classic. Dworkin is interesting for what a polarizing figure she is, but I find her ideas to be kind of er "quaint".

"blashpemer"

Dworkin was fat. Now she is dead.

Renee remains the same.

The question remains: CAN YOUR PUSSY DO THE DOG?

I'm not particularly anti-porn, but the fact that so many people would be so moved to villify MacKinnon, whose body of work is enormous and wide-ranging, simply because she also wanted to take their videos away, makes me want to agree with her on that point more than I do.

Classic, BTW. And only really "radical" in the context of the conservatism of legal theory. I mean, get one Sheila Jeffries, people!

wanting other people to have the opportunity to get their perv on not same as hoarding a mountain of pornos, Tim. I don't want to go worship in any temple/church/mosque, but I don't care if others do.

Catherine McKinnon: I can't say for sure that she is the dumbest bitch I have ever come across but she's definitely in the top 2.

When will love be lost?

"wanting other people to have the opportunity to get their perv on not same as hoarding a mountain of pornos, Tim. I don't want to go worship in any temple/church/mosque, but I don't care if others do."

Fair enough, but the general drift of this thread gives the impression that the right to watch porn is a more important button-issue for y'all than, oh I don't know, the general legal and social subordination of women...

if i thought criminalizing porn would somehow end the general legal and social subordination of women, i might support an exception to the 1st Amend. but their idea seemed to be attacking a symptom (and a mostly rather mild one) rather than the cause. extreme examples of violent porn can be prosecuted under other laws.

Again, fair enough, but this is like one issue among the countless others about which MacKinnon has written.

Why is a feminist's position on porn the only thing that guys on ILX care about when judging their C or D status, is my question.

Tim, this is true, but legal scholarship ain't the bag for 99.5% of the people here, so the only time she crossed over to the mainstream consciousness, was the time (perhaps the only time) she was on the wrong side of an issue (even if she had the best of intentions). I have read several interviews with her over the years, she does come off a bit puritanical, perhaps people are picking up that vibe too?

and to be fair as well, her fame rests on porn

and to be fair as well, her fame rests on porn ...more like Andrea Dworkin resting her fat ass on that bonehead McKinnon's gnarly face.

Well Timmy (and anthony) that makes sense I guess. I came to MacKinnon in retrospect reading back on feminist theorists, and I guess the porn issue seemed like merely one among many rather than her claim to fame.

Having said that I don't think her "legal theory" is particularly daunting for people not into legal scholarship generally... anymore than Kate Millet's "literary theory" would be for non-literary-theory types. Both writers use a particular field as a jumping off point for talking about the construction of society generally.

Some of these people clearly need an imagination upgrade and a dictionary. Or just a cold, lonely wank.

Some of these people clearly need an imagination upgrade and a dictionary. Or just a cold, lonely wank.
-- suzy (theartskooldisk...), April 22nd, 2006.

... and what the world needs now is another stupid fat ass bitch like I need a hole in my head ...

Go felch yourself, ringpiece.

DNFTT

I heard some anecdote that a Dworkin-McKinnon approved anti-porn law was enacted somewhere, and then one of Dworkin's books was successfully banned by it... does anyone know if this is in any way true? I think it was Canada or somewhere in Canada.

I also hear that people who actually have read Dworkin's work understand her ideas to be more subtle than the media summarises them.

But yeah, I reckon there is something wrong with any society which thinks that pornography is an intrinsically *good* thing.

There was a feature about CMcK in G2 in the Guardian some time over the past month, and she came off VERY well.

The debate I'm usually involved in is 'is this porn or isn't it?' in terms of art and commercial photography.

This is that irritating part of the thread where I say I was there: this happened when I was 15, my uncle was head of the Mpls. vice squad, and both of us wanted that law because we knew the conditions the shoots and films happen in and the way the victim/bully thing works! How many pictures of dead teenaged girls/boys who've been used up by the sex industry do *you* need to be convinced by? Do you honestly think, for example, that the men in front of the camera aren't exploited too because a Y chromosome lets them off?

The ordinance was in effect for ONE DAY because the mayor vetoed on First Amendment grounds. Often all the vice squad in a city can do with pornographers is make sure they get busted for tax evasion, so it's a pretty fucking thankless job.

There's no question that that MacKinnon's intentions were spot on, at least insofar as they addressed the more gruesome aspects of the porn industry. But that's the problem--the ordinance wasn't limited to the gruesome acts of the porn industry; it was more broadly directed at the messages that pornography conveys, which are protected speech. It's a real problem, but I come down on the side of speech. I don't normally agree with Judge Frank Easterbrook, but his opinion in Hudnut is pretty much otm: http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/vaw00/hudnut.html.

But hey, she did good on the Meritor Savings Bank case!

Pornography is like abortion—just because it shouldn't be outlawed doesn't mean it's not inutterably sad. In a perfect world very few women (and men) would end up in that business. It's a symptom of—I won't say social breakdown, because poverty and sexuality have always had a brutal side, it's not like it's getting worse—but it's a symptom of our continuing brutality. We've trashed those people. Their parents trashed them when they were babies, and we trash them by consigning them to an untouchable caste.

I don't know much about MacKinnon, and I'm in too much of a hurrry now to read all the links, so I'm sorry if I'm being redundant.

your point about abortion and porn is spot on, I certainly am not "pro-porn" to the extent I think it's a good thing, I just believe that it would be extremely difficult to "outlaw" it in anything resembling a free society.

...but I love how the "it's my body and I'm an adult" argument pans out when you're chalenging male conservatives on each of these issues. For some reason the porn actress gets a free pass but the college student who wants an abortion doesn't.

porn is outlawed in India. They seem to have a pretty free society otherwise (at least in terms of speech and expression)

if it is outlawed there, i'm sure it's still fairly available. My point was you can't stop it without going to invasion of privacy extremes, it's just too pervasive, not that living in a world without porn would be some sort of miserable existence. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

Explain, O Enlightened One.

Don't worry, Suzy... I only think you are half as dumb as you sound.

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hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen 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hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fapfap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen faphen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen fap hen 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Wanks!

I never thought that I'd yearn for the days when the biggest problem these threads had was Callum.

Bcz at least Callum had the guts to post under his real name or blatantly obvious pseudonyms.

Raw Patrick... now that is a nice name. Ever consider safe sex when practicing buggery or is that too much to ask, you scab ridden sodomite?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

The trolls on this thread are vile scum.

I heard Catharine MacKinnon on the BBC too the other day - super articulate, in no way obnoxious but a little prickly and overly defensive of her attitudes to porn and men.

I find the porn/abortion analogy upthread way over the top. A lot of porn is indeed sordid and sad, and I really don't have a lot of time for the hardcore triple assfucking end of it. I don't find it sexy precisely because I find it so sad and soulless.

Softcore porn (ie basically pictures of naked women) is rather different. I'm not suggesting that the women involved are all doing it for the love of it. They're doing it for the money, sure. They're exchanging their titillation value for hard cash. Is this so reprehensible, though, if what is demanded of them is not hardcore humiliation, but just sexy shots of their nakedness? In our culture, a culture where in many countries it's fine to go topless on the beach, where couples are taking sexy photos of each other on their digital cameras as part of their sex play (and where there are plenty of websites where women or their boyfriends post such photos), I'm not so sure that soft porn is any more exploitative than having a student summer job as a waitress or working in a factory or whatever.

As for the charge that it's objectifying women as sexual objects, I part agree, and part disagree when it comes to soft porn. One difference between hardcore and softcore, is often that there is some attempt to humanise the woman, however cackhanded. Even on Page 3, they generally have some lame line about how Sally, 23, from Shrophire loves farming and walking her dog or whatever. Sure, it's horribly cheesy, but it means that what the text is trying to do is to transform the woman on display into some sort of fantasy girlfriend, not just a lump of meat. But of course there is also a sexual objectification element. But isn't there in real life sexual relations as well? As long as sexual objectification is subsumed into a more inclusive sexual response, is it particularly wrong? In fact, to be able to see one's partner (of whatever gender) as both a sexual object and subject seems to me pretty crucual to the whole enterprise.

Good points, though I doubt any of the softcore models are putting it on their resumes when they try to change careers, unless they're activists provocateurs like Annie Sprinkle (though she was hardcore, I think). Even with the sunsets and puppies, there's still shame involved. It's still not something we'd want our child to do.
What I was getting at up above with the sadness comment was the ruin one can assume is there in the lives of most of the hard core porn models. I can't see anyone with a loving family putting themselves out there in that way. What if their grandmother found out, you know. A cousin of mine is a counselor in a women's prison, and she claims that prostitutes almost all have history of childhood molestation. I'm assuming that the same is probably true for porn models, too. I'm cushioning my statement with "probably" because categorical statements tend to wind people up, and it would be nice if we could just keep talking, in between the outbursts from our oddly upset guest.

"if it is outlawed there, i'm sure it's still fairly available. My point was you can't stop it without going to invasion of privacy extremes, it's just too pervasive..."

it may be too pervasive in the west (ie, "genie back in the bottle" type of problem) but in other places where its never taken hold I don't think that's the case. I couldn't find ANY porn in India - maybe I could have if I spent more time there, but internet stuff was all blocked by the gov't, and print stuff would have to be sold in some kind of black market that maybe I just wasn't privvy to. Prostitution, otoh, was rather obviously available. I know this is all a tangent, just interesting to me to explore the different ways societies deal with this stuff... and also illustrates the obvious that banning porn/sex work /= the liberation of women (see any hardcore Islamic country)

also I find it interesting that the common feminist critique of porn as making women into lumps of meat explicitly (hah!) implies that men find lumps of meat sexually stimulating. A strange turn of phrase - it's both weirdly insulting to the male libido and also indicative of a dislocation from how visual stimulation works.

never underestimate the male libido. and I should know.

A lot of porn is indeed sordid and sad, and I really don't have a lot of time for the hardcore triple assfucking end of it. I don't find it sexy precisely because I find it so sad and soulless.

does anyone actually find images of triple ass fucking arousing?

I sometimes wonder if porn is going through the same kind of trajectory that other "art" forms went through in the 20th century - moving from representation or whatever to something so extreme that it runs agains the original purpose of the form.

someone does but not me. Read any of the numerous threads on porn on ILX and you'll see that most of the men profess to finding the sordid-triple-ass-fucking stripe of porn profoundly UNstimulating. I think porn culture is definitely going through a "how extreme/offensive can we be!", just like the rest of popular culture.

any time wannabe censors get all huffy about sexually explicit material, I just immediately wonder what turns them on.

but no I don't think she's an idiot.

DNFTT

CM: Go to hell, you stupid bitch!

witless anon troll: go back to craigslist Rants 'n' Raves, asshole.

Selfishly, I wish the government would protect porn, but crack down on porn as a business. Prevent them from incorporating or something.

josh in sf is not a clever boy.