grammar

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Is the phrase " a hot cup of coffee grammatically incorrect? My friend says hot modifies cup and not coffee, and the phrase should be cup fo hot cofree. When I run a grammar check on Microsoft Word, it does not correct the first phrase.

Margaret Horne, Saturday, 22 April 2006 12:58 (twenty years ago)

If Microsoft Word says it's ok then it's ok.

Onimo (GerryNemo), Saturday, 22 April 2006 13:08 (twenty years ago)

a) it is not in any way grammatically incorrect
b) it is (arguably) semantically incorrect, for the reasons you give

however
i. if the coffee is hot the cup will be hot (and vice versa)
ii. there is anyway a handy get-out here called "transferred epiphet": it is a poetic device -- required in poetry bcz rhythm or rhyme sometimes ensure that stnard prose word order can't be sacrosanct -- which very naturally and easily naturally migrates to prose

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 22 April 2006 13:11 (twenty years ago)

The hotness of the cup is crucial. It warms your hands.

Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Saturday, 22 April 2006 13:22 (twenty years ago)

But why is it always a "nice" cup of tea?

Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Saturday, 22 April 2006 13:23 (twenty years ago)

because the niceness extends out to the entire ritual!

(ie the transferral part of "transferred epiphet" correctly maps the situation: the niceness of the tea is objective correlative for and indeed metonymic of the social event)

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 22 April 2006 13:28 (twenty years ago)

someone once told me "the happy office" was a transferred epithet. I argued that it was an oxymoron.

MarkH (MarkH), Saturday, 22 April 2006 13:55 (twenty years ago)

Tea is Nice
Coffee is Hot
Tea is Cats
Coffee is Dogs

Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Saturday, 22 April 2006 13:58 (twenty years ago)

so cats are nice and dogs are hott?

Onimo (GerryNemo), Saturday, 22 April 2006 14:02 (twenty years ago)

The "cup of coffee" is a complete noun phrase in itself, and therefore the "hot" is not simply modifying the "cup". Innit.

emil.y (emil.y), Saturday, 22 April 2006 14:09 (twenty years ago)

cup of coffee seems to be refering to the coffee with "cup" quantifying the amount, as opposed to say "gallon of coffee" whereas it would be "cup containing coffee" if one wanted to specify the cup, no?

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 22 April 2006 14:20 (twenty years ago)

i would like a warm glass of a cold cup of hot coffee with a cool teaspoon of cold sugar and an icy dash of tepid milk plz that would be nice!

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 22 April 2006 14:52 (twenty years ago)

when someone say they're going to drink a cup of coffee, they mean the coffee, not the cup.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Saturday, 22 April 2006 15:10 (twenty years ago)

"I am going to drink coffee that's in a cup"

RJG (RJG), Saturday, 22 April 2006 15:11 (twenty years ago)

they also mean the cup! as measure and as means! it's a continuum! a HOT continuum!

mark s (mark s), Saturday, 22 April 2006 15:23 (twenty years ago)

I think "cup of coffee" is now understood as a coherent single item in itself, including details about the contents, the rough amount, the means of serving it, etc.; if you changed any of those things we probably wouldn't refer to it as a "cup of coffee" anymore. (E.g. the same amount of coffee, cold, in a cocktail glass, wouldn't really fit the category of "cup of coffee.") So simple modifiers like "hot" can extend through that whole noun chunk (hot + cupofcoffee).

The "cup of hot coffee" form is much more detailed and allows you to make all kinds of interesting distinctions about where the modifier is pointed, but with modifiers like "hot," those are distinctions we just don't need to make. (And if we did need to make them, they'd be unusual enough that we'd spell them out, rather than relying on minor syntax stuff to carry them: if the cup was frozen and the coffee was hot, you'd say "hold up, dude, let me explain something really weird about this coffee.")

With other modifiers you wouldn't do that -- e.g. you'd say "cup of Colombian coffee," because it's actually important to specify which part of the cupofcoffee unit is Colombian.

nabisco (nabisco), Saturday, 22 April 2006 18:07 (twenty years ago)

"have it my way, eh? alright i'd like a large coke without the cup"

Tracey Hand (tracerhand), Saturday, 22 April 2006 19:11 (twenty years ago)

and the phrase should be cup fo hot cofree

no, i don't think it should be "cup fo hot cofree" at all.

grimly fiendish (grimlord), Saturday, 22 April 2006 19:47 (twenty years ago)

except nabisco i drink my coffee in a mug, which although it is strictly a kind of cup, is generally though of as differen than a cup. like if i said "let me get you a cup" and brought you a mug, you'd think "wait! that's not a cup! that's a mug!" (or at least i would) but even though i'm drinking from a mug i'd say i'm having a cup of coffee. or if i was drinking from a cuplike thermos i'd still say i was having my morning cup of coffee as opposed to "thermos of coffee" but if you asked for a cup and i brought you that, it would be even worse than if i brought you a mug!

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Sunday, 23 April 2006 00:20 (twenty years ago)

two years pass...

i'm intent on proving myself right here. to me, this is the most obvious thing in the world. but my officemates are challenging me, the scoundrels.

which one is correct:

"The production originated at the Chichester Festival, then transferred to a sold-out run in London's West End."

or

"The production originated at the Chichester Festival then transferred to a sold out run in London's West End."

there has to be a comma after Festival.

Surmounter, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 15:26 (seventeen years ago)

Q. What is a comma's favourite song by The Smiths?
A. Girlfriend in a Comma! (coma)

Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 15:28 (seventeen years ago)

come on there has to be some kind of commaphile on here who can solve my little grammar puzzle

Surmounter, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 15:38 (seventeen years ago)

You are correct. Don't ask me exactly why but I bet my life on it. Who is suggesting no comma? That person is a moran.

quincie, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 17:12 (seventeen years ago)

w/comma is definitely correct

sleep, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 17:14 (seventeen years ago)

Surmounter you should have used the thread for commas!

comma roundtable

Tracer Hand, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 17:16 (seventeen years ago)

Technically, neither is correct: if I were editing that, I'd put an "and" in place of your comma. But that kind of "comma-then" construction (that you're proposing) is very common and most people probably wouldn't bat an eye at it. The version without the comma is just plain wrong.

jaymc, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 17:17 (seventeen years ago)

THANK YOU

Surmounter, Tuesday, 24 June 2008 17:20 (seventeen years ago)

one year passes...

blow up english grammar and start all over again, ugh

noted schloar (dyao), Sunday, 7 March 2010 14:07 (sixteen years ago)

english grammar should be trotted out as witness #1 in the argument against intelligent design

noted schloar (dyao), Sunday, 7 March 2010 14:09 (sixteen years ago)

ha tbh it's the only reason i'd ever thank them for invading us, caint as gaeilge is a bitch imo

quiz show flat-track bully (darraghmac), Monday, 8 March 2010 11:26 (sixteen years ago)

I suppose I should thank them for invading us too, and unifying the tribes

noted schloar (dyao), Monday, 8 March 2010 12:49 (sixteen years ago)

one year passes...

Icarian? Icarusian? Neither?

Virtual Bart (EDB), Friday, 2 March 2012 23:54 (fourteen years ago)

Icarus-like?

Aimless, Saturday, 3 March 2012 00:01 (fourteen years ago)

thermally-challenged

Streep? That's where I'm a-striking! (darraghmac), Saturday, 3 March 2012 00:01 (fourteen years ago)

Haha, I went with Icarian in the end.

Virtual Bart (EDB), Saturday, 3 March 2012 00:03 (fourteen years ago)

one year passes...

however
i. if the coffee is hot the cup will be hot (and vice versa)

<3

j., Saturday, 18 January 2014 16:34 (twelve years ago)

nine years pass...

I would be shocked if this has not popped up on a thread or two, but if so I have no idea where, or whether this is the best place for it, but wow:

“Adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order: opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun. So you can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife. But if you mess with that word order in the slightest you’ll sound like a maniac. It’s an odd thing that every English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it out.”

He follows up with another example, "As size comes before colour, green great dragons can't exist."

Discussed at more length, with other "rules we know but don't know we know," here:

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20160908-the-language-rules-we-know-but-dont-know-we-know

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 7 August 2023 14:46 (two years ago)


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