Bipolar Disorder

ha.

bye.

it can be very tough for everyone involved, but it looks as though you've got a decent outlook on the situation so far, cc, though it depends on what you think "stable and happy" is. learn to work with what you got, i guess is all i have to say.

Hopefully you have some close friends or family nearby - I think it helps if you have someone else monitoring you. A different friend of mine has General Anxiety Disorder and one of the things she gets phobic about is taking medications... so she needs to have someone talk to her calmly a lot. Usually it is her husband, but occasionally other friends have talked with her (I think we all have a routine now, "no one put anything in your Xanax...")

Do you know anyone else with a similar diagnosis? I think it must help to share experiences.

I don't think it's natural to feel happy for no reason. It seems that we've all been brainwashed to think that being happy is the normal perpetual state of being. Is this not to sell us items we don't really need?

So far things I've read in Bertrand Russell and Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi are the only things I'm really buying on the subject. Specifically that it comes down to working and giving a focussed effort. Anyway, that's where I am at the moment. It's a hard transition for me. It was so easy to smoke a joint or drink a 40oz or play a video game or watch a lot of television whenever I wasn't feeling positive about things. It's hard for me to set goals for myself. I'm just not used to doing it. However, it does seem much more natural to spend one's time working towards something, than it is to sit around wondering if one is happy or not.

I think my default setting is to feel down. I grew up with a father who (everyone now realizes) was very seriously depressed. And he was retired, so I got a lot of exposure to his problems. So for me sadness, discomfort, blueness etc are very comfortable and feeling good is still scary and foreign.

To further my misery-pants status, I grew up Seventh-Day Adventist (end of the world is coming, so prepare for that, foresaking this life, etc), in fear of nuclear annihilation and in a very depressed economy, so working toward something I care about is not where I excel.

Being bipolar would be annoying, I suppose, but there are great men and women who have been bipolar and accomplished swell things back when there tweren't even no medicine for it.

Don't feel bad. 1 in 3 Americans is medicated now. In my experience, everyone is basically crazy, anyway, it's just that some people seem to take notice and be BOTHERED by their craziness. This is a great opportunity to medicate them. And that is what happens.

don't let anyone tell you that meds impair one's capacity for logical argument.

I think one thing that gives me hope is that I think the medications being developed will only get better as time goes on and eventually they may have some sort of cure in my lifetime.

A couple of months ago he decided my dose was too low, so increased it by a third. I started having terrifyingly huge mood swings, which on the down swing was genuinely dangerous to me. They've settled some, but I'm certainly not seeing any benefit right now - I've been in very bad shape for a few weeks now. I'll spare you all the grisly details, but things need to improve at least a little, and soon, or I don't know if I'll make it.

Like him I was treated for unipolar depression for many years to no great effect. Then about five years ago I was properly diagnosed with bipolar disorder. I think I had hindered this diagnosis myself b/c my mother also is bipolar but with the very classic mood swing model. Whenever doctors would question me about mania I said no, I didn't experience it b/c I was never like my mother had been.

Turns out I'm mixed episodes, rapid cycling which manifests nothing like the more "typical" pattern my mother experienced. My mania was always very angry and violent.

Anyway, the meds rollercoaster isn't a fun one. After years of trying every SSRI, since my BP diagnosis I've been on Trileptal, Topomax, Lamictal, Depakote, Zyprexa, Effexor, Neurotin, Serequel and others I'm sure I've forgotten. I've also been hosptilized twice. For about a year now I've been on just Lithium, Wellbutrin and klonipin. This has been a great mix for me and my moods have never been more stable - even through some very hard life events. Therapy is also a huge help.

Hang in there CC, you are certainly not alone.

I can't tell you how many times I've heard people say that they "don't believe in meds for depression" because they think they're happy pills.

Do you also say to the AIDS patient: "CD4's down? Getting infections? Have you tried yoga, a vegetarian diet, excercise?" Or the diabetes patient, etc.

These things help with AIDS and diabetes too, but they are no substitute for medicine when indicated.

Also, why did you leave off talk therapy, a treatment that should certainly be included in a list of alternatives to meds for the treatment of depression?

Do you also say to the AIDS patient: "CD4's down? Getting infections? Have you tried yoga, a vegetarian diet, excercise?" Or the diabetes patient, etc.

probably because not so many AIDS patients stop using the drugs and say things like 'fuck! the side-effects/withdrawal symptoms were worse than the actual depression!' which is sadly what you hear quite often from people on meds (also i'd guess there's less of the "1/3 of people are mad, we should all be on ssris" shtick from those quarters).

I agree with Tombot re: meds, there's plenty to be sketched out about, who knows what you're doing to the wiring in your brain (run one Google search for Effexor & "the zaps"). Plus if you don't have a steady employment situation with insurance that pays for them, what do you do when you run out and can't afford them? It isn't easy. A healthy diet and regular exercise and sunlight help. They don't solve everything but they do help. Not to mention the terribly uncomfortable situation it puts you in of not knowing which actions/reactions come from meds & which are your responsibility alone. I had this in college when I took antidepressants for a while and it took me nearly a year to figure out I wasn't just being careless and lazy, but what could I tell my professors by then? And what did I do if they weren't interested in my explanations for missing class and delayed assignments? Not a lot.. and don't even get me started on how utterly unsympathetic my graduate department was to a similar predicament when there was a recurring episode (ie ignore me completely and cut my funding - yeah, money is scarce, but they surely could've, you know, asked how I was and treated me like a human being instead of going about it the way they did.)

Give individuals some credit. When you're prescribed a mind-altering drug you're going to do some investigating and make the best choices for yourself. (granted not everyone does but I assume if you're on the internet talking about it you have done this.)

The discussion is just not helpful to people who actually need and choose to take these meds and are just looking for some empathy.

pls note I'm not jumping on Dar1a or tom or anyone in particular. just expressing frustration with the usual bs of these threads.

yeah, it sounds like people totally make the best choices for themselves, going on, well, all of human history and the internet in particular.

I agree with your last statement completely matt. But also you should make decisions for yourself based on one person's experience based with a particular drug.

Enrique, we are talking about individuals with mental illness deciding what treatment is best for them. That is all. Yes, I do give the person who started this thread benefit of the doubt that she is doing this. Anything else would be insulting and unhelpful. You on the other hand. . .

Finding the right combo of meds is a trick and once you do that may not always be the perfect combo forever. So I think it's important to have some kind of social network in the meantime, that helps me more than my meds. Friends/relatives/mentors you can call or have over or e-mail when it gets tough. Are you in college? A lot of colleges have free counseling centers---not always A+ counselors but it's probably the only time in you'll life you'll get free talk therapy, and if you don't like one you can always try out another. The counseling center at my school has been really helpful---frustrating at times, but a good resource. They just helped me get a bunch of classes waived from my record from a time I was too depressed to do well in school. I think it's important just to talk about getting diagnosed and getting that kind of label put on you. Did a physician or a psych diagnose you? Looking at the DSM-IV to check out what these labels actually mean really helped me. Learning, reading, talking to others in the know about your condition really helps.

This website has some interesting ideas about bipolar: www.mcmannweb.com

Good luck.

Start working on one of the 954,263,821,469 medical problems out there.

Like I said I hate these threads and probably shouldn't read them.

Yes, if your un-medicated depression *allowed* you to go the gym/yoga class/supermarket/kitchen/whatever. I struggled to get out of my *bed* for six months and there is no way on God's earth that I would have got the motivation from anywhere to take up a regime of doing myself good.

Many times where I work a client is anxious or depressed and the tendency is to say "Do you need more meds?" - but with a littel probing you find out something like they just talked to their Dad on the phone in the morning and it made them depressed. HUmans are so complex, it's never just meds that are the source of unhappiness.

Obviously it's true that meds affect some people badly, and it's hard to find the right ones. Obviously it's also true that there are other things that can help. In my experience, and talking to quite a lot of people (admittedly unusually intelligent/educated ones) who've suffered depression or bipolar, they are pretty good at assessing the various options, learning and thinking about the meds, trying multiple other strategies and so on. Speaking for myself, even at the best periods since this condition took hold (happily married to a wonderful woman, really nice home, job I like, plenty of money, wonderful friends and so on), the drugs have saved my life more than once.

The thing I loathe on these threads is not arguments about whether they are good or not - since they are clearly not all good - but the implication that always comes up from someone that taking them is some sort of cowardly and weak and dumb option, and that if I tried hard enough I could cure these symptoms by some more exercise and force of will. I'm relatively forgiving towards this lack of understanding of the illness, because until it hit me I didn't grasp the difference between depression/bipolar and feeling a bit low/being below par - not just a difference of quantity, but a very big qualitative difference.

FWIW, lifting weights = completely different from yoga or the other physical things I suggested. Have you ever seen a spiritual guru teaching his students to use a bowflex or the elliptical? Both kinds of exercise may release endorphins, but those associated with metaphysical shit have a completely different kind of benefit you can discover for yourself with a bit of research or first-hand experience. I'm not talking about hardcore speed yoga, either.

Yes, if your un-medicated depression *allowed* you to go the gym/yoga class/supermarket/kitchen/whatever.

There must be a moment in time where one is not crying 24 hours a day (otherwise, how would one hold a job?), so during one of those times, experiment with various options. Start small: go to amazon.com and research some good books and videos you can experiment with in the privacy of your home. The things I've mentioned WILL do wonders for many people. A chemical imbalance is obviously a serious thing, but I believe it MAY be possible depending on your personal circumstances to rebalance your brain chemistry naturally rather than ingesting a pill. Of course, there are people born with organs on the outside of their bodies, so I imagine there are people who just don't and won't ever have proper chemistry. But, I'll tell you, those Sciento's were onto something... the Pilot's "Self-Clearing Manual" could just possibly blow you away with how effective it is. Brain chemistry is related to what you think and how you feel (obviously), but it works both ways like a vicious circle: what you feel affects your chemistry which in turn effects your mood. So, learning to experience your feelings diffently and relate to them differently goes a long way to changing your brain chemistry. That sounds obvious, but if you check out the Self-Clearing manual, you will see the "techniques and tools" as Tom Cruise likes to call them, are anything but obvious. And I don't think you have to worry about brainwashing yourself in the privacy of your own home.

Some people can't, or they barely do.

See, depressed people, you're FREAKS. But do some yoga and you'll be fine. Pull yourself together and magic away your illness, because it's not really a proper illness except that it is sometimes!

What a load of horseshit.

Some people can't, or they barely do.

How do they get to the doctor to ask for meds?

Also depression doesn't always manifest itself in crying.

I was not being serious. Most people who are depressed carry it around for a long time before having crying jags, especially men. Guys do not cry as easily as women, in general. I find it very hard to cry, actually.

I wasn't being serious wrt "crying" but I certainly wasn't making fun of anyone. I was saying, simply, if you're not a crying mess, you are not to incapacitated to check out Amazon.com. If you can post on ILX, you can do some research and attempt to help yourself before dragging your ass to the doctor to get meds.

To CC who began this thread – as you see from the top two thirds of this thread and will continue to see everywhere around you (if can you continue to be brave and curious and continue to talk and ask questions about mental health), there are so many people who are right there with you. You are not alone, it does take time (sometimes a long time) to get the meds/chemicals dosages right, which is why it’s imperative to keep talking and seeking answers from your doctors. Call, visit, talk. Repeat as necessary.

Having a mental illness (I hate that it is even called “illness” as there still is some stigma around anyone who is “ill” in any form physical or mental) anyway… that said, it’s getting better. As the old farts die off who can’t accept anything they can’t see physically – and those who seem to think and say out loud that if you have a mental illness you’re somehow inferior to other “healthy folk”, just know within yourself that they’re the real crackpots. If you scratch the thin veneer of anyone’s life and mental status you will always find doubts. The "sane" likely doubt themselves more than they will admit. Hang in there.

To Martin skidmore! I am sorry to hear that you’re having such a down bit. Life is a series of ups and downs for everyone, but you feel it more profoundly than most. How distressing it must be. You have many good things in your world but I am sure it is sometimes impossible to appreciate them. When it seems most bleak, hang on and reach out to your support group and tell them how awful it is for you just then. Even here on this "crazy" ILX board (despite the one or two errant fools who get their jollies by denegrating people but I digress).... Your friends are here/there to help. They will help you and catch you if you fall. Please always remember it. There is catharsis is sharing your turmoil and safety in numbers.

And to all reading this: different people medicate themselves in different ways. Thank science for psychopharmachologists or crude lobotomies would still be performed with ice picks!

One man takes a synthesized chemical like Prozac to escape the stress of depression & a Valium to relax, and Another man gets his Prozac/Valium combo fix by working out like a "madman" or breathing & yoga or other such physical means (lest ye not forget that the body releases *endorphins* when stressed by the pain (hello?? PAIN???) of physical labor) and just what is an endorphin? A chemical. The origin of the chemical is immaterial; chemicals and meds = help for all who need them.

A rose by any other name smells as sweet. To each their own and let live.

Here's me: Meds are not bad, but there might be other alternatives. Brain chemistry is pretty serious and meds are pretty serious. I know someone who took lithium and tried to kill herself. I think there are ways to change your brain chemistry naturally, but life is not all perfect. You can't just "magic" away your problems with wishful thinking (ie. kids born with organs outside their bodies), so meds might be the eventual solution, but if it were me, I'd try these other things first...

Here's ailsa: See things my way! Shut up! Stop telling people they can magic away their problems with yoga, you yoga pimp! And stop likening chemical imbalances to freaks with organs outside their bodies.

Here's Tom: Hey, crazy man, we're trying to help people with mental illness here, so fuck off, you loony!

:-)

Funny how people see things one way that is not the way it really is. These perceptions affect our moods and this is exactly the kind of stuff I was talking about: learning how to see your emotions/perceptions differently combined with physically altering your body chemistry naturally.

And with that, I'm off. Anything I wanted to say, I did and anyone can take my advice or leave it. Good luck to you all, especially my old pal, TOMBOT.

Signed,
Batshit

I don't think the yoga vs. meds debate needs to be polarised. A balanced approach (which ideally a health-care professional should be assisting you with) would take a wider, more holistic approach - exercise has more research backing it up than you might think, together with helping people to address the circumstances in their life that are disabling them from participating as full as they would like to. That could be done by meds, it could be done by counselling, it could be done by looking at the disabling situation itself and seeing what environmental changes could be made - maybe improving someone's housing conditions, maybe helping them finding supported working schemes, maybe providing access to vocational or social skills training that can be used to address challenging situations. A lot of people don't get this level of input because the resources aren't there in our NHS, but there are a lot of mental health workers who go much further than simply dishing out meds.

Yoga man, I've tried a lot of the techniques you suggest (although I have no idea what smiling exercises are) and can report varying levels of success with them. Equally, there are times of my life when I needed a little bit more help (I don't have bipolar). Did the meds provide it? I still don't know - it was a very mixed experience. I wouldn't dismiss either approach out of hand, but you should be very careful about recommending them for others when you haven't asked much about their condition.

CC - I hope you DO find something that works for you. Don't let anyone put you down for having this.

There are a lot of people out there who don't seek some form of help for precisely those reasons. For those that are wary of medication, but think it could be of some benefit, I would strongly recommend you go have a long talk with your doctor, and go from there.

I think that my own personal problem with the whole medicate/don't medicate problem is this:

For imbalances and/or diseases that require long term medication, such as Diabetes, AIDS, there is a very specific bloodtest that you can take that says "Yes, you do or don't have the disease, and this is what you do." It's fairly simple, conceptually at least, to test for the presence or absense of a virus or an enzyme.

There simply is no blood test for Bipolar disorder, depression, or most other mental illnesses. Diagnosis and prescription is so subjective and often so inexact.

Add that to the history that the Psychological/Psychiatric industry/profession has - of "treating" and/or medicating such "diseases" as homosexuality, hysteria (codename for being female, really), etc. - and it does create a certain sense of suspicion or mistrust.

This is not to nonsense anything. But try to take some kind of control over your illness. Investigate your diagnosis, research your prescription, question everything - not to try and debunk it, but to understand yourself better. Go on what you *feel* because that's what this disease (for lack of a better word) - some kind of "disease" of the emotions. Discover what is best for you.

I mean, I was told when I was 22 that I would spend the rest of my life on lithium, which was like being punched in the gut twice a day. I recently went off SSRIs because I didn't want to spend the rest of my life on drugs. Yeah, the withdrawl was awful, but once the withdrawl was over, I was up and down like a lift again. That's not the withdrawl of the drug being worse than the symptoms, that's realising how bad my moods were before medication. I didn't notice because that was normal - the year of relative peace that SSRIs gave me made me realise how out of control my "normal" moods were. So now I'm back on them. If that makes me weak or a bad person, or overly influenced by the medical profession, then whatever. If you want to think that, fine, but you don't have to live in my head, and my head seems to be a better place this way.

This shit fucking sucks.

this shit sucks

I'm p much in elmo's situation, I mean, it's a different situation, but I'm constantly dealing with someone who, I have to constantly remind myself, has a medical issue

Soooo... anyone here have any experience trying to convince a person that they need to get their ass to a psychiatrist and get evaluated for this?

good luck
someone in my family could have used an intervention before her life spun out of control

Any helpline recommendations for someone with bipolar who can't see their counsellor until Monday? (roommate possibly heading for a crisis; her friends and family unavailable to help her for various reasons; I am trying to do what I can without getting too involved).

http://www.samhsa.gov/treatment/index.aspx

they a 24/7 hotline. if there's an immediate risk involved (or you can't evaluate the potential risk) get some professional help.

they have* a

Thanks, it's good to know about this. I should have said though, we are in Canada. (sometimes I forget that, bizarrely - I haven't been here long. Sorry).

It's evaluating the risk that I'm worried about. I mean, to the best of my judgement, I honestly *don't* think there is a self-harm risk. But I don't know the person well AND don't know much about bipolar. Things are not too bad at the moment, but they are heading downhill, and I am predicting crisis later today because I know she is planning to have a particular conversation with someone that I am guessing will not go well. I hope I'm wrong re either the conversation, the crisis or both.

She was hospitalized for the last couple of weeks in a different city, and I wonder if it's them I should call if things do not go well, since they saw her most recently.

Surely Canada has a 911?

Yes. I don't know whether it's ok to call them if she can't calm down (stop shouting and crying) but there is no actual risk to her that I can assess, which is what has happened a couple of times. On those occasions it's been a difficult night. As you know, LL, I have a tendency to want to fix things! - so maybe that is what I am trying to do here - but in another sense I am really trying NOT to get involved/stay up half the night talking etc.

Hard to call 911 before something actually goes wrong, but if she does end up out of control you could call them.

Most Canadian cities have a mental health hotline which you can call 24/7 for advice. The hospital she was admitted to weeks ago wouldn't have much to offer, I bet.

These links might be helpful:
http://www.cmha.ca/mental-health/find-help/
http://www.suicideprevention.ca/in-crisis-now/find-a-crisis-centre-now/

Thanks, the first link was the kind of thing I was after (i.e. not just suicide prevention).

Anyone have any experience on Depakote specifically if it's likely to induce a numbed/zombified state? This isn't for me but someone close to me who is worried about side effects.