defend the indefensible: JOE LIEBERMAN

better liberal rating than Max Baucus, Kent Conrad, Ken Salazar, Mark Pryor, Mary Landrieu, Ben Nelson, John Murtha, Stephanie Herseth and Artur Davis

not an anti-semite like Zell Miller

And he speaks with proper syntax and can answer an extemporaneous question and make some semblance of sense (unlike other politicians I might mention).

And... his wife seems nicer than Lynne Cheney.

so you think Gore would have won Florida without him, huh?

the answer is yes

Alleged voter fraud aside, it isn't like Gore won Florida with him!

Shit, that ain't the half of it.

hardly. yes, his centrism is generally in the ballpark of what i (and maybe half of democrats) regard as 'electable', but persona-wise, he's probably more of a special teams guy (which is why the vp pick was generally well-received, but there was no Joementum).

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1207783,00.html

Also: " Lieberman, of course, also has powerful backers. Reid, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have all spoken or written letters encouraging Democrats to back him."

When is Barack Obama going to do something deserving of his rep as the "great black hope" of the Party? I can't think of a single thing he's done that I approve of, apart from delivering an okay speech at the convention. Mostly all I hear about him is his shilling for old party stalwarts.

i concur on obama. i've heard nothing about him but "when will he run for prez?" since he was elected. of course, i'm also in canada, but i pay a fair amount of attention (i can tell you all about the minnesota senate race!). that's obv. not to say that he isn't doing anything but it is regrettable that he is still only gaining major headlines for his electoral success/prospects.

the very first post in the thread i said fisa position was bullshit & at no time argued otherwise

What's depressing about rereading that thread (which I'd forgotten about) is how all of us are in there, arguing generally about the same shit.

(xp i was right or at the very least the issue was more complex & intricate than "that obama, what an asshole")

deej if you won't own up to membership in the fan club I don't know what to say, you're as likely to say "let me see how he is right" as I am to say "let me see how he's wrong" - I have given dude props multiple times and they count about as much for you as your calling him out on an issue that's transparently obvious does to me

im only 'defending' him in response to yr flagrant chicken little routine. i hardly think hes perfect or that he's made all the right moves. but on the other hand i dont know what the right moves would be. how the hell do u get a health care bill around lieberman? is it possible that revealing these pictures would prove catastrophic to our troops abroad (i lean towards 'no,' but i dont know, and neither do you)

This bill has become perfect cannon fodder for the GOP in 2010. Once upon a time it wasn't.

deej on that thread you linked you're trying to flesh out the more high-minded parts of his ethanol position

c'mon, now

even ethan, a fellow and equally well-liked-by-me obama stan, tells you to quit defending positions that suck on that thread

This bill has become perfect cannon fodder for the GOP in 2010. Once upon a time it wasn't.

― Sock Puppet Pizza Delivers To The Forest (Sock Puppet Queso Con Concentrate), Monday, December 14, 2009 8:24 PM (6 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i mean these kinds of statements too -- you might be right, i dunno -- im just asking for some further argument here bcuz im not sure i blindly accept that this is true. isnt the goal of this bill to make something that will be very popular & difficult for the GOP to gain popular support for its appeal? what factors that have been stripped from the bill make this no longer the case? Was the medicare part one of them?

deej on that thread you linked you're trying to flesh out the more high-minded parts of his ethanol position

c'mon, now

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Monday, December 14, 2009 8:25 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah and look at all that pro-ethanol legislation hes pushed through since! what a fool ive been

oh give it time, gotta get this health care bill thru first

these argument (re)started because you were pushing guilt-by-association wall street arguments that i havent even said anything about disagreeing with -- i just asked for more evidence, which you havent provided. instead youve tried to poke holes in a bunch of stances you're assuming i have & trying to paint me as obama stan #1

I mean you're zagging here. the issue on the floor is "will deej stan for obama rain or shine." on the thread you link, you're scrambling for excuses to explain away a position he took during the election. this is stannery most foul you gotta admit.

xpot because you are stan #1! that's cool 'n' all it just bears mentioning y'know

the issue on the floor is actually hatred of joe lieberman, near unanimity of

in fairness, a thread with this title should have zero responses

Posted this in the OTHER Obama thread, but it's needed here for "context":

WASHINGTON — Senate Democratic leaders said Monday that they were prepared to drop a proposed expansion of Medicare and make other changes in sweeping health legislation as they tried to rally their caucus in hopes of passing the bill before Christmas.

After a tense 90-minute meeting on Monday evening, Senator Max Baucus, Democrat of Montana and chairman of the Finance Committee, was asked if Democrats were likely to jettison the Medicare proposal.

“It’s looking like that’s the case,” Mr. Baucus said, indicating that the provision might be scrapped as a way of “getting support from 60 senators.”

Under the proposal, uninsured people ages 55 to 64 could purchase Medicare coverage. The Senate Democratic leader, Harry Reid of Nevada, floated the idea about 10 days ago as a way to break an intraparty impasse over his earlier proposal to create a government-run health insurance plan.

The signal from the party leadership came after the closed-door session to gauge sentiment for moving ahead with a pared-back measure that would not contain elements that liberal lawmakers had sought, particularly a public health insurance option.

Lawmakers and top aides said that the overriding view at the session held just off the Senate floor was that they had come too far in the health care debate to give up and that they should forge ahead with some legislation even if it was not all that they wanted.

After the meeting, lawmakers said they believed that chances were increased for completing a health care bill and that a final product would be a substantial improvement over the current system.

“If you compared it to the alternative, it looks good,” said Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, about the prospect of moving ahead with a measure that does not have a public health insurance option. “If you compare it to the possibilities, it looks pretty sad.”

oh give it time, gotta get this health care bill thru first

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Monday, December 14, 2009 8:30 PM (6 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

my argument was that he was paying lip service to ethanol bcuz they were a huge funding base for him, being from the midwest -- so far i havent seen evidence to the contrary. was there some big part of the stimulus going to subsidies of the ethanol industry that i missed?

http://www.bioenergy-business.com/index.cfm?section=lead&action=view&id=11861

US stimulus package provides large boost for biomass energy but little for biofuels

18 February, 2009

I mean you're zagging here. the issue on the floor is "will deej stan for obama rain or shine." on the thread you link, you're scrambling for excuses to explain away a position he took during the election. this is stannery most foul you gotta admit.

xpot because you are stan #1! that's cool 'n' all it just bears mentioning y'know

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Monday, December 14, 2009 8:32 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

um, the first post in the thread is me saying fisa is shitty -- does that not come under 'rain or shine'? -- followed by my ... not contradicting that position in the entire thread

expecting the president to reflect your exact values is foolish, is my position, not 'the presidents values area always correct' which seems to be what yr implying

uh-huh

EPA not Obama, hands ties, nothing he can do, I know

how the hell do u get a health care bill around lieberman?

Yes, what to do, except strip the dumbass of his committees, etc etc

now now Mr. Que

i will be really angry (like j0hn d level angry) with the democrats if they don't make this fucker pay

back on ethanol:
The struggling ethanol industry did not receive much support from the stimulus package because it already receives tax breaks, said Douglas Durante, executive director of the Clean Fuels Development (CFD) Coalition in Bethesda, Maryland. “There wasn’t a lot for biofuels,” he said. “We really weren’t expecting a lot.”

The CFD had called in vain for a revolving loan fund that would have provided zero- or low-interest loans to troubled ethanol producers.

& more on ethanol:
http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/05/obama-ethanol-high-five-slap-in-the-face.php
Just as the Obama administration is launching an interagency task force to boost the biofuel industry amidst an industry-wide slump, it is also preparing to rigorously measure the carbon footprint of biofuels, making them look even more controversial and environmentally risky.

Wait until the climate/energy bill becomes the center of attention next year - then you'll find out Obama's position on biofuels. I'm not optimistic, given his language during the campaign. There will be an idiotic argument that shouldn't even be necessary "corn-based ethanol is driving up fuel prices, actually CONTRIBUTING to climate change (due to land use change both domestic and international (others need to grow more soy because our corn addiction = cut down rainforests, eventually), and contributing to the increase in food prices/riots VS "HAY it's from the ground isn't that what you envirofascists want/protect our farmers you god damn fascists). Sadly, I can see Obama supporting the corn-based ethanol loonies, while throwing a bone to environmentalists in the form of increased funding for second-generation biofuels (switchgrass, algae) that don't compete with food production.

that is the going line on his positions - that he'll try to split the difference, essentially pissing everybody off except those permanently in his corner. which to be fair has been Democratic strategy pretty much as long as I've been alive.

Yep. And, perhaps even more sadly, I can envision my reaction when Obama throws 80% of his support behind corn-based ethanol and 20% behind cellulosic (and about 0.0005% behind conservation of energy) in a few months...

"well...he did what he could...he needs to win votes in Iowa, Minnesota, Kansas, big corn states...it's not easy being him, what he's doing is a hell of a lot better than what Bush would've done..."

BLECH, fuck this century so far

Yes, but, J0hn, Obama's taking The Long View.

"well...he did what he could...he needs to win votes in Iowa, Minnesota, Kansas, big corn states...it's not easy being him, what he's doing is a hell of a lot better than what Bush would've done..."

man when I say shit like this they come down on me like a bag of hammers

If you learn how to animate a bag of hammers falling on your naysayers, life becomes a little easier imo

anyway back on topic i hate joe lieberman so very much

Supposing all the teeth get pulled out of this bill, and everything Joe wants to happen happens - does anyone think he won't just vote against it anyway?

I don't understand how he was reelected. Hopefully he'll be defeated in 2012 as the rest of the world blow up - while I will blame on him btw

aye connecticutim

Supposing all the teeth get pulled out of this bill, and everything Joe wants to happen happens - does anyone think he won't just vote against it anyway?

then he will be elected king of the haters tho which has been his goal all along

the only chance is to xmas out and give olympia snow

or saganaki. greeks love that shit, the stereotypes are true

/cankle_stanton

I don't understand how he was reelected. Hopefully he'll be defeated in 2012 as the rest of the world blow up - while I will blame on him btw

I think Joe knows he's in his last term in public "service" and is blowing up as much shit as possible before he goes.

“If you compared it to the alternative, it looks good,” said Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, Democrat of Rhode Island, about the prospect of moving ahead with a measure that does not have a public health insurance option. “If you compare it to the possibilities, it looks pretty sad.”

this guy OTM, my feelings exactly. y'all are welcome to join me on the Joe Lieberman RIP thread!

does anyone think he won't just vote against it anyway?

I totally expect that he's going to vote for cloture and then vote against the bill itself.

oops, posted this to the wrong thread, meant for it to go here: if the bill still prohibits private insurers from denying based on pre-existing conditions, jacking up rates on people because of those conditions, dropping people because of those conditions, and gets rid of lifetime and annual caps (apparently it didn't do the latter but they were working on fixing that), then I think it is still a vital and awesome bill even without the rest of this. do I want a public option? absolutely yes. do I care if that public option is only available to people 55 years old? no, because selfishly, neither I nor anyone in my family falls into that category right now. But we are potentially fucked by the pre-existing stuff and any laws that go into place that will keep me from going into bankruptcy because my wife has cancer are good by me. but still, fuck a lieberman.

looks like im late to the party but j0hn thank you for posting that link in response to my question!

i think you can probably guess what my response back is, though: yes, that sucks; the cap is a bad thing; i dont trust the senate; this bill is too friendly to insurers.

but: i cant say that i am, in particular, disheartened by an article that indicates the loophole will be patched up!

and, more importantly: were still not close to a situation where the "bad outweighs the good." more people will be insured with this bill. not as many as i want. not as many as should be. but im not going to turn my back on it!

and bro--i say this as a bro--there is a thing, here, where every time this happens it turns from an argument about the merits of obamas presidency into an argument about whether or not deej would support anything obama proposes. thats... dumb. and in bad faith.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ov-pT1x-W8Y/Syc81xcp_4I/AAAAAAAADRs/8TXu1nI2OTA/s1600-h/hcbill.png

blargh.

in case anyone is wondering why joe is allowed to continue to be such an ignorant pathetic waste of useful organs and not get stripped of his seniority:

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/12/lieberman-riling-dems-on-health-care-but-is-major-player-on-climate-same-sex-benefits.php?ref=fpb

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVRp52op918

http://www.nydailynews.com/opinions/2010/02/22/2010-02-22_on_ask_lieberman_answers_the_call.html

yeah he could have done this a long time ago I suppose.