Stalin: Genocidal Paranoiac or Great Revolutionary Leader?

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The general consensus in the media is that Stalin's regime oversaw the avoidable deaths of 10 - 20 million people. I'm posting a link to an article, admittedly written by a hardcore Stalinist, which refers to recent research published in the American Historical Review which places the death toll nearer to 500,000. Now I KNOW that 500,000 is bad enough, but if 500,000 dead constitutes a genocide then the UN (i.e. the US and its British bulldog) is currently perpetrating the biggest genocide in recent memory through its sanctions against Iraq.

I really don't know who to believe and it seems to me to be quite an important question.

www.geocities.com/redcomrades/lies.html

I'd be grateful for any constructive feedback.

Chris Sallis, Sunday, 24 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

well, how many died in and around burundi in the 1990s? and in cambodia? the usual figures you read there are two and three million respectively (though i know the latter is contested — eg most famously by chomsky — and that some scholars have argued it was closer to 600,000)

the 500, 000 in iraq is a statistical extrapolation, not a direct headcount; aren't the stalin figures also? the stalin figure shoot up into the millions once it starts to be argued that stalin had deliberately engineered famines as a means of establishing political control through terror in economically recalcitrant regions - IIRC the 500,000 was a figure for prisoncamps alone; does this piece include "indirect" cause of deaths (which is the heading the iraq figures would mainly come under - deaths DIRECTLY from western bombing aren't as high as that).

"Genocide" is quite tightly defined by the UN, isn't it? It doesn't just refer to numbers of deaths. For example the Irish Famines in the 19th century aren;t classified as genocides, despite the fact that a relatively higher percentage of the population died than in eg the Ukraine under Stalin? Because the CAUSES were not deliberate (even if the refusal to organise adequate relief was a conscious political decision)

(ok i have googled nothing in this answer and looked nothing up, so don't rely on anything in it...)

mark s, Sunday, 24 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Famous quote: Lady Astor: "When are you going to stop killing people?" Joseph Stalin: "When it is no longer necessary."

Joe, Sunday, 24 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

the biggest genocide in recent memory

Define recent, though. The Holocaust is within living memory.

Some of the hard left revisionism regarding Stalin is really sad, to be honest. I forget the book, but there was this one text on reserve where I work that essentially argued that whatever deaths there were were either exaggerated or deserved, and more to the point the majority of Russian people were secure against the tyranny of capitalism. Outrageously ridiculous, especially considering the author would likely have been one of the first people to go were he there at the time. Doubtless this hadn't crossed his mind.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 24 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

"more to the point the majority of Russian people were secure against the tyranny of capitalism."

These sorts of explanations (and Stalin's approach generally) are great examples of how pure economic determinism is such a wack idea. On my less charitable days I've wondered if economic determinists (of all stripes) don't deserve Stalin.

Tim, Sunday, 24 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

these people need to read 'the gulag archipelago' or 'cancer ward' but then they would probably believe them to be propaganda. 1 out every 20 people were arrested during stalin's regime. how is one pro-stalinist? what were his accomplishments? his "vaunted" economic miracles were all a sham.

keith, Sunday, 24 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Someone needs to check the train schedules in Italy from 1922-43 and see whether Il Duce really DID make them run on time.

Justyn Dillingham, Sunday, 24 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

stalin was a paranoic maniac killer AND the figures are inflated. As I recall, some even included WWII-induced casualties when the USSR was FIGHTING NAZIS BEFORE THE US DID. Duh.

Sterling Clover, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Sterling and Ned are right re this. No sane person denies that Stalin killed many, it's just a question about the numbers (and those are flogged by extremists on both sides).

Needless to say, Stalin isn't considered to be a "great revolutionary leader" by the Poles. Their forced expulsion from the Soviet- occupied land at the beginning of WWII, their exile to the Gulag, and the Katyn Forest massacre are often forgotten.

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Anyway, I'm not one to wallow in victimology or PC. But since I did have family who were killed or sent to Siberia by Stalin and his goons, I do find this thread's title a little, um, "provocative." I realize it wasn't meant to cause offense, but it still stings.

Tadeusz Suchodolski, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Stalin was no great revolutionary leader. He was at best an opportunistic megalomaniac. Communism ended in Russia with the death of Lenin if not before if not to be replace by as pink tinged version of nazism. Stalin was little more than a new Tsar and appear to share a great deal of Romanov family traits, (being completely insane). Sure Stalin started Russian industrialisation, contributed to the defeat of Hitler (but only when pushed he was perfectly willing to seek accommodation with Hitler.

Stalin cannot be a great revolutionary in short because:

1) However many people he killed he killed a hell of a lot of people.

2) The Soviet Union was basically a reactionary Monarchy after about 1928/end of the civil war.

Ed, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Ed i dispute the first point , you cannot have a revoution w/o violence .

anthony, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

I dispute that, look at how Gandi led the Indians to Independance. Look at how most of the Eastern European nations freed themselves from state capitalist dictatorial governments. Revolution does not necessitate violence. Revolutions can come about by democratic means (Allende in Chile, Azner(sp.) in Guatamala, even Mussonlini, (nb. revolutions need not be socialist))

Ed, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Why has no one stated the obvious:

You can't make an omelette without breaking a few million eggs.

DV, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah Ed, there was no bloodshed in Chile. Right.

Except for tens of thousands of dead leftists and liberals. Smart move, mr. "peaceful".

Sterling Clover, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Are you saying Allende was responsible for what Pinochet did?

RickyT, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Yeah, he was too nice.

N., Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

what rickyT said

Ed, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

If the Communist Party of Ireland (Marxist-Leninist) and the Communist (Marxist-Leninist) International is still going, you are all going to be so for it.

Hardial Bains will come and get Stalinist on your asses.

DV, Monday, 25 March 2002 01:00 (twenty-four years ago)

two months pass...
I just happened to stumble on to this web site. I must say it is refreshing to here from honest forces, who reconize the achievements and contributions of Stalinism. It is sad that even today there are organzations that put on the pretense of being anti-revisionist, while they cling to Maoism and Trotskyism.

Has anybody read the book: The Historical Convergence of Maoism and Trotskyism? It was published by the Bolshevik Union of Canada. The book is out of print but the Marxist-Leninist analysis of both these revisionist trends is a major contribution to the ML anti-revisionist movement. I highly recommend it, if you can find it. Good luck!! I have two copies of the book, which I would like to put on the web, but I don't know how about doing it, any suggestions would be appreciated.

There is another book published by the Bolshevik Union, which is very controversial: The Political Meaning of the Assasination of Stalin. The book is available through the Barnes & Noble web site, under rare out of print books. I should warn any one interested, there is only one copy and it is expensive. This book should should also be on the web, in order to stimulate debate among Marxist-Leninists, with the intent of drawing firm lines of demarcation against the fake left i.e. Modern day Mensheviks. With Proletarian Regards, Ursla Redstone.

Ursla Redstone, Wednesday, 29 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

are you Hardial Bains' girlfriend?

DV, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)

Communist revisionists are no better than Nazi revisionists.

J Blount, Friday, 31 May 2002 00:00 (twenty-four years ago)


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