The ettiquette of googling & dating

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OK, so you meet someone new, and you hit it off. They ask you out on like, a date.

In order to check that he is not A) a psycho B) married or C) the drummer for a crap nu metal band (hey, this is the kind of men that I seem to be meeting lately) you run their name through Google.

Is this:

1) totally rational and sensible in this day and age, and a very good preparation for dating in the modern era

2) completely psycho and creepy and bordering on stalking

3) A slight invasion of privacy, but hey, if they didn't want their name out there, they shouldn't use the internet

or what?

Have you Googled someone before you dated them? Has someone you've dated admitted to Googling you? What are your thoughts?

kate, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

thank fuck the really incriminating website has been taken offline for nonpayment of bills if he googles me...

kate, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes, completely rational. I went on a date with a guy, thought him slightly weird, and then did a google and dejanews check *after* the date. Guess who's email address turned up on lots of kiddie porn sites? Indeed. ick ick ick.

sarah, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

2) completely psycho and creepy and bordering on stalking

the idea of someone i just met googling my name without me knowing is supa creepy

Chupa-Cabras, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I will admit to running someone's name through Google to see if there was anything about him. We weren't dating, but I liked him a lot. Found out loads of stuff about sporting events he had taken part in - I discovered how fast he could run a Marathon, for instance - but obviously I couldn't work any of this info into out conversations because it wasn't something I was supposed to have known. So it was rather pointless, really.

At least he didn't turn out to feature heavily on a gay porn site or anything. That would have been a disappointment to me.

C J, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hrmmm. Wonder if this is going to be split across gender lines...

A guy did it to me once, and I totally freaked about it. Because first off, the level of investigation. He didn't just run my name through, look at a couple of sites, go "Oh, she's in a band, OK" and leave it at that, he signed up to our mailing list and lurked on it. Second, he continued to do this after I had already told him that I considered him googling me as an invasion of my privacy. (I met him through the internet and never used my real name - he figured it out from my old email address.)

kate, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

UMM SO IT IS OK WHEN YOU DO IT BUT CREEPY WHEN SOMEONE ELSE DO IT?

UMM, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

that's so weird. i think it depends on the circumstances, i mean if you've got suspicions about them then perhaps it's fair if you have a good reason, but random suspicion of everyone you meet's a bit freaky.

Maria, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

No, in my mind, the creepiness depends upon the depth of the search (googling someone who has asked you not to, going so far as to sign up for a private mailing list is a bit different from just typing someone's name into google.)

And hey, if I were totally au fait with what I was doing, I wouldn't be asking this question in the first place, would I? I was wondering if I was being over-sensitive for not liking being googled, or if googling was indeed creepy.

And take your caplocks off, it's giving me a headache.

kate, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I would not have a problem w/a potential date googling me & would in fact encourage them to do so if they mentioned it. Hopefully they would not go through my LUSENET postings or they would quickly phigure out that I am full ov shit har har har. Mrs K-rad googled all her ex-boyfriends & I was fine with that, FWIW. Anyway Kate - googling yr potential date, I mean, have U not already got enough pics of wee boaby on yer hard drive? => ;) <=

Norman Phay, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh great I bet now you have all of ILX googling themselves to see what comes up!! Nothing to hide-honest!!

brg30, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I just googled myself and my name appears thirty five and a half thousand times.

I am very common. Ah, spit.

C J, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Like it just seems wrong to me. It's invasion of privacy. You go on dates to find out what people are like, surely?

jel --, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That is the trouble with only having a two-letter name, CJ. I wouldn't do this, any more than I would investigate a potential partner in any other way. Well, perhaps asking mutual friends, but that's a different level entirely. However, this practice makes me uncomfortable about having used my own name here on so many posts. I have revealed some things here that I would want to put in a proper context. Googling and checking out a few random posts would probably not find anything requiring that, but it might. It might also find some other Martin Skidmores - I have certainly spotted two others. Being a karate sensei is cool, but collecting old Ford Cortinas is certainly not.

I'm not trying to suggest that it is evil, but if I learnt that someone had Googled me so early, I would be very uncomfortable with them.

Martin Skidmore, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Would you tell a date that you had googled them, if they turned out to be a nice person??

jel --, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

A google search is fair game. Posting on the web and then claiming an invasion of privacy is like taking off all your clothes in public and getting upset when people look at you.

bnw, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i wouldn't think it's very useful unless they have a distinctive name

Ron, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I can see your point, but I disagree with that analogy. Alot of internet posters are very unaware of their audience, and in some instances are talking about issues they don't feel able to talk about offline. Some people reveal very personal details online and receive support from others online. The idea that some employer, potential date etc could google them (not just names, but email addresses etc), is I think going to inhibit that person and they may lose a valuable outlet because of this.

So, that's how I feel about it. Obviously there are unsavory people out there, and I wish for people not to meet them.

jel --, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

(that was to bnw)

jel --, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

It's invasion of privacy.
Huh? JEL, this doesn't make sense as it is in a public place (the internet)!

nathalie, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I have to think about this. I'm not articulating this very well, but I don't agree with this practice.

jel --, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I didn't Google "C J", Martin - there must be zillions of those. I searched my real name, and was dismayed to discover how bog-standard I am. *sigh*.

C J, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Completely acceptable, as far as I'm concerned. I've done it, it's been done to me, no problem.

Douglas, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

nath, in a more absolute sense the interweb is a public place, but many places on it are easy to see and treat as more private than that - I might say that some of them even have to be that way, in order to serve the functions they serve. what this means about how 'rational' it is to overlook this absolute publicness, I'm not sure.

Josh, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Some of it is not a lack of rationalness but a lack of technical knowlege. Not everyone is a geek and understands how google works, so they don't realize that they should worry about it.

Personally, I think it's hilarious that a google search for my dog's name turns up quite a few real results, but a search for me will only turn up a memorial that I wrote for a college friend. I should be more careful with my pup's name on the interweb. ; )

lyra in seattle, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Being a karate sensei is cool, but collecting old Ford Cortinas is certainly not.

sez YOU!

Since the process of typing someone's name into Google is such a simple, quick, cost-free process, and the information is all Public Domain it's surely not that big a deal. Now, if a prospective date hunted down my credit history or police record, say, that would be sorta disturbing.

petra jane, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think anyone who wouldn't Google me is not the right person for me.

felicity, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Just ILE and some few coincidences, felicity

Chupa-Cabras, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I've got loads of coincidences, my writer uncle and my icq profile

Interested in Hip-Hop, Foreign Movies and Internet Broadcasts?! I actually selected that?!

Chupa-Cabras, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha chupa, when's the wedding?

felicity, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Can we have loads of dulce de leche? :-)

Chupa-Cabras, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

and non-globular tapioca!

felicity, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hey you really do post on those sports boards!

Ron, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

oh, nevermind. thats greenspun

Ron, Saturday, 27 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Google me, you get: this

jel --, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

or this:here

jel --, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Well actually u wouldn't get the first one. I posted that by mistake.

jel --, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I have just reached the talk-on-phone, make-a-date stage with two women through cyberdating sites. You do make it hard to resist Googling them, and it does make me wonder if they have Googled me, but I am resisting the temptation so far. It would be a better option if everyone had unique names, obviously.

And CJ, you mean that CJ is not your complete name?

Martin Skidmore, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh go on - Google them, Martin! I think it's fun. If it's out there on the Net, then people must expect others to find it. It's not creepy - I think it just shows you are interested, that's all.

(Although my parents were economical with words at times, my name actually is a little longer than just C J. A shocking revelation, I know)

C J, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

surely googling someone is a complete waste of time? There are bound to be millions of people with the same name as your datee, so the escaped serial killer could be him/her or just somone with the same name. so why bother?

DV, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

YOU LYING CHEATING TWO-TIMING LOVE RAT

We are *so* through.

Martin's date, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i wouldn't worry if someone googled me. i've got nothing to hide. but then i don't really have anything to worry about cos my surname is SMITH. unlike hamish, i don't have to fill my surname with asterisks. i probably not bother to google someone else though cos i generally feel pretty safe about people.

di, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

DITTO ABOUT THE LOVE RAT THING, MARTIN.

You player, you.

Don't call again. I googled you, and I am stunned by revelations about your private life and that unfortunate incident with the donkey on the beach at Weston-super-Mare in 1971.

It's over

Martin's Other Date, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't do all that much googling - certainly not of 'private' individuals. But I'd do it if it were a more public figure, say, someone who's got music or writing on the net. I've also simply done it to look for old friends or to find an e-mail address because the one I had bounced. As far as potential dates, I think it's fair game. Personally I wouldn't care at all - I'd be more concerned about the motivation and the depth of someone's concern. I used to just feel bad about going to someone's web page. But there is a big difference between friendly interest and, you know...

dorito, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Question by way of analogy: If you and X were interested in each other, would you feel wrong for asking any mutual friends about X? I figure Googling and checking out similar publicly available resources- -but taking the findings with a hefty grain of salt--is similar, and not wrong.

I won't defend using the Google results to start stalking someone, or hacking in order to find out information that is generally considered to be private and sensitive (e.g., financial or medical records).

j.lu, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ah, Dorito: I did Google a date in that position - she was an awrd- winning novelist, and I found things like a Telegraph reviews saying she should have had the Orange Prize and even stuff about her activist mother in New York. It was all just expanding on stuff I already new, not at all about checking up on her.

I have talked to both of those women today, and made a date with one. I decided I wanted to meet the one I like best first.

Martin Skidmore, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I once chatted for a while with a woman at a cafe: we talked a bit about music and she vaguely mentioned being involved in certain bands and projects. She gave me her email address. Later on I googled her and looked at the websites for these vaguely-mentioned projects, which were very very cool -- she organized this annual avant-noise- glitch festival that I found quite interesting. So I emailed her and said oh hahaha sorry, it's creepy but I googled you and saw the festival website, and I find it really interesting and would love to hear more about it. She never wrote back.

My email obviously made no mention of the message-board post I came across where she got all unattractively huffy and histrionic about some comment she found inappropriate.

nabisco, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Anyway so I feel weird about googling now, even though her non- response probably had more to do with me just being some dork she talked to in a cafe.

nabisco, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Its okay to google somesone, just don't mention it to them right off the bat. You have to play it cool next time, Mr. Nabisco. If you tell her its kind of haha creepy, she'll see the creepy part much more then the self-deprecating "haha". Kinda like saying "I'm no psycho or anything but..."

bnw, Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah, telling someone you googled them is worse than actually doing it. actually googling someone is harmless, IMHO. on the other hand, if you chase down every link you find in detail, you're going a bit too far (like searching someone's name who's on ILX and trying to find all their posts).

i'm actually quite interested in an older woman that i've met a few times, so i did a google search on her because i was curious about roughly how much older than me she was (although i was also keeping an eye out for lines like 'C***** lives with her husband in Port Hope'). i found the bio attached to one of her CDs, which told me which degrees she had got, and now i know she's about five years older than me and unmarried. i wouldn't feel comfortable googling for anything more significant than that, but i also won't blurt out "i searched your name on the internet!" before we get to know each other.

Dave M., Sunday, 28 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i just googled your address that's visible, and the only thing that came up was the lollies. and i've googled for the spam address i use here, and nothing comes up, either.

yeah. what aldo said.

i also think it's ok to google new people. why not?

and you actually found someone you liked on okcupid? i think i'm using it wrong...

oh, loads of xposts. just tried it for myself, and searching for 'a2lette' comes up with 'springfox crushes' and young dems stuff. so boring!

colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:40 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, I guess what's done is done, no point in worrying about it.

I mean, if we *were* to meet up, it would be kinda foolish *not* to tell him my full name. Or something.

I'm just creating fuss for the point of fussing because I'm really not sure that I should be dating again so soon. So I just shouldn't really think of it as dating, I should just think of it as meeting another nice internet bloke like my ILX friends.

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:43 (twenty-one years ago)

I doubt many people think to google email addresses (as opposed to names) anyway.

Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Chances are, he's just as paranoid as you, Kate. Also, this is all kinda hinging on him actually googling for *anything*.

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:46 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe I should just be done with it, and google him.

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Do it! Then post the results to ILE!

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

(Or maybe not)

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Maybe you should just relax! :) Honestly, it'll be cool. Or, you could tell me his name, and I'll google it, then I can get back to you with any incriminating shit, thus you can honestly say you never googled his name!

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Google doesn't index like half the threads anymore, so you're all lucky in that respect. Really though to see what dirty laundry is readily available on ILX you just delete the last character from your email that you use here (masonicboo, runmd, albab, a2lett) plus "-webmail" to get rid of pesky duplicate forms. It's a fun game.

TOMBOT, Wednesday, 1 September 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Ach, it appears to be his work email, which only brought me to his work site. Database programmer. This much I knew already!

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, I really should not be on this thread as for years I've been in the habit of putting every single potential partner through Google. I rarely find anything incriminating though ;)

I had an OKCupid date a couple of months ago and before I'd even Googled her there was a trail indicated she was friends with an Ilxer so the cat was well and truly out of the bag.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:05 (twenty-one years ago)

OK, I'm a bit freaked out now because I tried Tombot's trick and found out that someone had posted an ENTIRE ILX thread to another board in its entirety.

(The thread about "yet another MOJO Beatles cover" posted to the MOJO Board, I'm sorry, but this irritates me.)

I just get the weird feeling that this sort of thing shouldn't be done, but how would one complain about it?

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I think the only option would be to complain to the MOJO board owners, get them to take it down--of course then you've got to ask google to get rid of it from their cache, too.

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Surely the answer is to not post anything that you are bothered about other ppl reading. *ducks*

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, and how boring would life ILX be then?

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Haha!

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:14 (twenty-one years ago)

actually, i suspect that the easiest answer is to have another email address that you use for dating and/or spam, or something?

want a gmail invite? i've got several...

colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

ooh me purrlease!

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Me too!! I want on this bandwagon!

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:17 (twenty-one years ago)

I did mention the various email things earlier. Use your real name on ones you apply for jobs for, and weird ones for different things.

___ (___), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Just realised how immensely cheeky that was. Sorry. (xpost w/ myself)

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:18 (twenty-one years ago)

alert: for kate, a well known homepage domain with pictures of you and a certain ex can easily be googled via your nickname.

you may want to take it down or insert no robot tags.

DJ Martian (djmartian), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:20 (twenty-one years ago)

ok, pink i've got your real email address, will send the invite there? and tissp, is that the right email?

colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:21 (twenty-one years ago)

cool, thanks colette!

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Alarmingly, applying Tom's google strategy to my old name reveals the top match as a page called 'Classic Sex at asportare.com'

Stop copying ILX threads onto even more disturbing sites, please!

Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Nick, when did you teach the specifics of internet reporting??

Markelby (Mark C), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:25 (twenty-one years ago)

Colette, the email is correct yeah--thanks very much! Truly I am one of the cool set now

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:27 (twenty-one years ago)

No, you have to drink Colette under the table before that can truly happen! ;-)

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:51 (twenty-one years ago)

That'll never happen, I'm sure. I seem to have lost my capacity for drinking, worringly. But that's for another thread.

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 13:54 (twenty-one years ago)

hmm. i don't think that drinking with me makes anyone cool, but thanks for the thought, pink!

colette (a2lette), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 14:08 (twenty-one years ago)

It was just a joke C! You are indeed the height of cool lady!

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 14:11 (twenty-one years ago)

kate, even though he's an internet guy . . . maybe googling someone hadn't occured to him. maybe? i don't know. assure yourself with the fact that if he's into you, he'll find a lot of things charming that you might be otherwise embarassed about.

kelsey (kelstarry), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 14:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Mark - 3 years ago? It later turned out someone from ILE was in the audience. Can't remember who now. It wasn't 'the specifics of internet reporting' (whatever that means). It was using online sources to aid investigative reporting.

Alba (Alba), Wednesday, 1 September 2004 14:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Phew!

Oh my god, after all that paranoia that he had googled me and I'd scared him off with my bizarre rambling, I sent a tiny message asking "Did my email get through or did I scare you off?" and it turned out that my email got EATEN BY A GIANT FRACTAL CANTOR SET OF NOISE INTERFERENCE and never got through and he was glad that I got back in touch anyway.

(Sorry - I realise that at this point, no one cares about my love life, but I still was amused by the anthropomorphic image of how emails get eaten by the internet.)

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Phew. Do you want to see up a new email account? I can send you a gmail invite if you like?

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Nah, it's OK, I've already resent it from a different account anyway.

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:16 (twenty-one years ago)

in fact, the OKCupid computer has matched me with other ILXors

Good grief!! That must have been pretty freaky!

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:36 (twenty-one years ago)

(TOMBOT's -webmail google thing doesn't work on me, I don't know wether to be releived or dissapointed)

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I just had a quick trawl through that m0j0 site, it made me want to push my head into a mincer. Even at its worst, thank god for this place.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:48 (twenty-one years ago)

Sorry - I realise that at this point, no one cares about my love life

Is there any way to point out that I kinda care without sounding creepy?

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:51 (twenty-one years ago)

kate, i care as well! just haven't been around that much...

colette (a2lette), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:52 (twenty-one years ago)

What's a g mail invite?

Dr. C (Dr. C), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Lady if you have to ask...

PinXor (Pinkpanther), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I kind of care too, in a "I hope it works out good for you" way, I hope that doesn't sound creepy either!!

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:57 (twenty-one years ago)

Aw, well, thanks, guys. :-)

I just feel really awful sometimes (especially in the light of that thread about high maintainance friends) when I bang on and on about this crap.

Super-Masonic Black Hole (kate), Friday, 3 September 2004 11:59 (twenty-one years ago)

It's cool, it makes me feel better about doing it ;) Sometimes it's nice to get stuff off your chest though.

the impossible shortest special path! (the impossible shortest specia), Friday, 3 September 2004 12:00 (twenty-one years ago)

other people's love lives seem to be all that i care about these days.

ken c (ken c), Friday, 3 September 2004 12:59 (twenty-one years ago)

two years pass...

C or D? Googling an old crush and seeing they haven't aged very well

bobby bedelia, Friday, 25 May 2007 23:18 (nineteen years ago)

I have been zabasearching the fuck out of people lately. I now know how old all the managers in my office are now!

Pleasant Plains, Friday, 25 May 2007 23:20 (nineteen years ago)

zabasearch is avery scary thing

bobby bedelia, Friday, 25 May 2007 23:22 (nineteen years ago)


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