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What is a poet?

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Can you be a poet without having read any poetry? Subtitled: "Anxiety of Influence" - WTF?!

― david h(0wie), Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Note - mark - this subtitle isn't a plead for explanation of "4 Million Words or Thereabouts" but rather bait to draw you out into answering.

― david h(0wie), Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

anyone can be a poet as long as they don't pronounce 'poem' like POH- YUM, as far as I'm concerned.

I'd think any other answer here unnecessary.

― RJG, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think you just need to stop before you get to the end of the
line to be a
poet.

― Martin Skidmore, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

haha skidmore's enjambement suXoRz

you don't have to read poems but you have to read something (lots of something): after that it's like jenga, how much can you not have there before the tower falls?

― mark s, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I prefer kerplunk.

buckaroo! or, even, pop-up pirate even more. I suppose that says something about me.

― RJG, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

bangaroo! = poetry

― i think hopkins pointed this out, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

sounds like some sick antipodean PORNO site.

― RJG, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Minds out the gutter you lot. Direct all further questions to me, "Pendragon-The-Poet":

http://members.hometown.aol.com/_ht_a/scarlottidemon/images/pendragon the poet.jpg

― The Actual Mr. Jones, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the idea of being a poet without reading poetry is preposterous.

― Lady Wolfshirt, Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

me too.

http://www.renaissancefashions.com/Clothing/clothing_images/Poet%20SHIRTweb.jpg

― "poet shirt" ($45), Monday, 29 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

What is a poet?

Why, I am.

The proof = http://www.evictjade.co.uk

Do not go there if you love jade.

― misterjones, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

hey, I've just read this thread. Who's this 'The actual Mr. Jones dude'? How long as he been posting here?

Hiya, actual!

― misterjones, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You can be a poet without reading any poetry. But you have an approximately 1% chance of ever being a good one.

― Archel, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I like those odds!

― Andrew L, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I too, Andrew. Except I blew it by reading some pomes the other decade.

There MUST be a joke here about whether or not it is possible to write The Quixhote without ever having read it... or something...

― Tim Bateman, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You had better read your own.

― the pinefox, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Miroslav Holub reckoned that you're only 'a poet' while you're actually writing a poem. Meaning that you shouldn't use it as a job description I suppose. But back on topic, I don't see why anyone would want to write poetry unless they enjoyed reading it.

― Archel, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ha, I do not agree with one single post on this thread so far. Apart from a half-agree with the last half of sinkah's post. I'm not sure about what you mean by the first bit mark - why must you read lots? (Skim read that e-mail you sent ages ago [4 million] for first time and was disgusted with said suggestion. Though I don't know why. At work, so will get back to later - if you can please elaborate.

― david h, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Ha: and the pinefox's.

― david, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Maybe Mark is right that it doesn't have to be poetry you read. But you DO have to read lots - otherwise how can you acquire the love of language and the understanding of what it can do (and perhaps of what you DON'T want to do with it) that you need to write poetry? I have been in workshops with people who don't really read, and their poetry is ALWAYS turgid and clumsy, and of course revoltingly self-centred.

― Archel, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"poet" = "JUGGALO"

― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

BUT PAM AYRES WAS A SPY YOU KNOW.

― Archel, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

if you listen to lots of music (with words) that could take the place of reading. If you didn't have any exposure to any sort of poetry whatsoever, I do wonder how the idea of writing it would occur to you.

― Maria, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hiya, actual!

Hullo misterjones (it's like the clash of the titans isn't it? scary). Don't mind the name; I started posting some months back and was at a loss for a snappy handle so just stuck with my own. Added the Actual so as not to COMPLETELY BLOW EVERYONE'S MIND with a double mister jones onslaught. Would have put "Other" if not for the sinking suspiscion your name is macdonald, er, actually. Nice to meet you!

(sorry i wanted to make this a poem for everyone else's sake but I haven't had nearly enough coffee yet)

― The Actual Mr. Jones, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

ahem. "suspicion".

― The Actual Mr. Jones, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Poet = compressed fiction (to simplefy, prose in a box. OUCH). Fiction = lies or reals or reels of life. Life = lived. Where on the way back from right to left do we see the reading bit?

I don't know. I know nothing but poetry. Is it, as depressing as it sounds, chartable as a succession of nods, winks, and shakes [hand and head] of its leading players. Is the reading required for commentary? Should poems have to conversations going at once: one with the reader, and the other with critics/authors [who, of course, can be, and are, readers] both tracing different arcs.

The way I see poetry is about relating real life (and ergo, themes) through mark's Jenga-compression method (which after thinking about on the way up the stairs as the wettest man EVER I now agree with 90% ly). And this compression achieved by use of tricks and devices: rhetorical slants, figures of speech etc. The problem I have with this you must read lots is the implication that this reading must be in the poem, ie there should be notes at the end of each poem saying Line 1 cf. Aeneid etc... Or is this the case? If so, the problem I have is that I would worry that my reader's aren't going to bring these notes-knowledge to the table and thus aren't go to fully understand my poem. If I pop, part of a poem, in "So you are glad." - are you going to know its a nudge towards AL Kennedy's "So I Am Glad" hinting that I disagree with what she concludes at the end...? Are you going to know THAT? How much do poetry readers bring to the table? As much as they have, David. But if no one brings the encyclopedia that I have, if no-one sees my winks and thinks they are blinks then I am going to be deemed a failed poet. A rubbish one.

Hahahaha... self-centred, y'say. Note: I have only ever written one poem [exc. that one, which isn't fin.] which was when I was, err, 14 and it was called "Just Kurt?". Ha, guess what that was about. Hehe.

Now were you to suss that the title was a pun: Just as in justified? Just as in "ah, he was just Kurt, y'know - you took him as you found him"; just as in was he the only murderer in that house ie did he die by his own hand? Ok, bad pun? Maybe not, maybe. But would you SEE?

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Hahahahaha, look what I found on Sinister: Ok I don't mind you guys seeing this, since I disown it as teenage whimsy:

“Just Kurt?” by David Howie

The lonely, lying Jesus man,
Lay aground by “his own” hand,
Listless and lifeless, lethargy takes hold
Of an idol deemed strong, a man reckoned bold.
His innocent hands naïve of vice,
A shot of candy, no grasp on his life,
In Rome, we were wrong.

Watch as the vultures feed off his body,
Reporters, anchors, their platitudes shoddy.
A Hole has opened from whence he came
The shameless lady shares her shame.
Her Doll Heart effects a nadir
Countless others succumb to their fear.
Lost lambs mourn their shepherd,
Messiah on the podium,
Disenfranchised,
But heard.

Haha, sorry. Look at those inverted commas. I promise I'm a better writer than this now, hahahah.

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

That is *so* bad.

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I know nothing about poetry. About!

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

New "Look at that cascading enjambement at the back end of the second stanza signifying the descent into the dark place the 90s were about the broach" answers. (Obv. this thread doesn't need this post to new answer it but I wanted to make a point).

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"... the commas as bookend steps to hell..."

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"But David - don't you see? Your 'reading' is already creeping into your poetry - "A Hole" [capital], "Her Doll Heart" [capital]... Hn?"

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Also why "lots" of something?

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

At that age I thought using 'nadir' was poetic in itself. :)

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

I recently went to a poetry reading evening given by adults who had only recently learned to read and write. Obviously they hadn’t read lots but their conviction, sincere emotions and honesty shone through their work. Their poems were never turgid or silly, perhaps not as fluent or verbose as seasoned, more educated writers, but valid and beautiful nonetheless.

― Saskia, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

You don't know, do you?

― david h(0wie), Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

the reading wd mostly only be in the poems the way it is in what you say and write any day of the week: eg as ghosts and pressure

― mark s, Tuesday, 30 July 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Now contrast Saskia's excellent comment with the general tone of this thread. Hmm.

― Mark C, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

what's the "general tone of this thread"?

― mark s, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Did you used to work in Peckham's Byres Road?

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeh - what is the general tone of this thread. Cos its not that and don't even say it is.

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

mark c must mean you, david, you've posted most

what i meant when i said that in the email about "concept", as in "i don't really like the 'concept' of poetry", was something like this: that with writing i don't much like being presented in advance with a framework which is supposed to shade (if not determine) my response... so actually i wouldn't use the word "poetry" probably to describe the poems saskia's talking about, but that seems to me to be a weakness of the concept, not of the poems she heard (and obviously you could change the definition of the work, to include those poems, but then why not just call it "writing") (i'm avoiding saying "verse" or something like that because it's so manifestly patronising)

should there be a word that distinguishes what wallace stevens or jeremy prynne do from what a five-year-old does? i'm not sure: part of me says absolutely not, but part of me says, well, technical terms like "ballad" and "epic" and "limerick" aren't just mystificatory jargon, so is there something going on with the word "poetry" which separates it from other kinds of writing? (which was david's original question)

i don't think someone will necessarily be a better writer for reading a lot: it depends what they read and how they read

Acrostic Spider Poem by Hannah aged 6

Sticky spider webs catching fly.
Poisonous spider creepy.
Insects fly in the shining webs.
Delicious spider have spotty.
Every spider make big webs.
Running around the country.
spider! spider! spider!

― mark s, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeh - I think I thought I knew he meant me - and it was a diss, so I put up a deflectitron shield. It's not had a chance to hold yet. Whatever? This thread has been smug, self-indulgent, self-serving, self-sided, all about myself and my self, condescending, patronising and absolutely none of the left. If you think it has been absolutely all of the left then it probably has I'm just an idiot who has an ego like a Mario ghost. As long as you don't look at it, it will be ok and can live and fly up behind you and affect you. But as soon as you turn round, meet its eye, then it's out, shading itself into gauze, retreating, and the slightest knock and it bruises, another and it will break.

Am I on the correct thread. I'm on the wrong one, again, aren't I?

That's cheating using "Spider! Spider! Spider!" at the last to meet her form. Like writing 102 Beats That! and ending on one word - you just can't do that

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

david she's six! anyway it's my second favourite line so hurrah!! (guess which my favourite is...)

― mark s, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

B..b...but, here's where I agree with Saskia: "Skim read that e-mail you sent ages ago [4 million] for first time and was disgusted with said suggestion."

I'm going mad, I'm sure I heard you say that in the classical sense poetry is a club, that you walk into using the right words, the right "succession of nods, winks, and shakes [hand and head]".

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Said suggestion being the Club one.

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Poisonous spider creepy.

I know, mark - that was the 'joke'.

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Brilliant: they're all great exc. the first one. I just read through and stopped at that one I chosed thinking there can't be any better but I really think that "Delicious spider have spotty." and "Running around the country." are real contenders. Esp. the spotty one. Spotty what? haha brilliant.

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"Said suggestion"?! Iron... fist... of... death...! Like those students who when writing e-mails to their tutors or officials, put in a bit of reflexive or mixed up sentence structures to show they have 'personality'. Arggh. Folds arms. Punches left cheek. Jumps down ten stairs and lands on knees. (PS, I know someone who did this in real life. At school. Drunk!) I'm less bored now, than I was.

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

Where d'you get that?

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

praying to the great god google

― mark s, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

An' yr favrit lime?

― david h(0wie), Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

spotty!!

― mark s, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)

"If poetry is the non-instrumental play of language, perhaps the instruments on which such play is made are the torn flesh and proud wounds of a divided body we call communication" says Drew Milne, a L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E=i=s=h kinda poet quoted in the new Poetry Review (recommended for a good Ian Sansom essay on Happiness). "Non- instrumental play" might be a fruitful way of considering what a poet does with words, making words do things they don't do in more common forms of communication. (Which isn't to discount that you can't consider non-poetic texts in this way also - though you run the risk of becoming that guy in the recent Onion story: GRAD STUDENT DECONSTRUCTS MEXICAN RESTAURANT MENU).

I think you have roughly as much chance of becoming a good poet without reading poetry as you do of becoming a good footballer without ever watching a football game.

― The Ghastly Fop, Sunday, 4 August 2002 00:00 (twenty-three years ago)


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