Let's go round and round and round and round and... (Caution Meta Question)

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Something I like about ILM: it doesn't take anything for granted. (Or rather, when a poster makes a post taking something for granted there'll usually be someone who cares enough to shoot them down.)

Something I like less about ILM: it seems to discuss the same general things a lot of the time - certain questions might get resolved for one poster but then another poster appears and raises them again.

I'm being vague here on purpose because I don't want to tie this to any of ILM's big perennial debates specifically.

My question - can the second thing be avoided without compromising the first? Is the circular nature of ILM debates inevitable?

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 28 October 2002 17:54 (twenty-three years ago)

I think this is why I'm keen to resist any kind of generalisations about "ILM" as a group (even though groupthink does occasionally show up here) - cos I think that considered as a group, with the implication of some common approaches and aesthetics, ILM isn't neccessarily terribly successful. As a means of making a difference to individuals' ways of thinking about or listening to music, I think it's been much better. So I'm happy to accept the circularity of forum discussions while still being irritated in individual cases.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 28 October 2002 17:57 (twenty-three years ago)

I think the second thing occurs as a result of people who have certain ingrained views about stuff, I mean thinking about the pop music threads as an example, alot of people have genuine trouble with the notion that ILM is a pop liking forum, generally. So in order to stop the second thing you somehow have to stop people being bewildered about a topic, which isn't easy by any means.

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i think it's somewhat inevitable. i mean, i've been posting here for almost 18 months now, and we've seen probably 3 or 4 big turnovers (at least viewed in retrospect) of posters in that time. you get a lot of people who come in, post a lot for even up to a month or more, and then disappear. a lot (but not "too much)" of ilm time seems to be taken up "educating" new posters, at least in terms of posting links where arguments have already occured, etc.

what is interesting to me is why certain arguments continue to crop up, when say the third interpol thread of a month or "why (X band sucks)" or whatever else just sort of die their own swift natural deaths from the boredom/exhaustion/disinterest of the posting massive. and this of course isn't even related to new posters! (like tom i'm specifically trying to not bring up arguments long-time posters continue to hash out on board.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:02 (twenty-three years ago)

you cant avoid topical issues coming up again and again, esp. as these issues are coming up time after time in the 'real world'

to discourage repetition is tricky and to enforce it is even harder unless you wish to alienate newcomers. people will be questioning the artistic legitimacy of mainstream pop music for a good while yet, likewise they will be bemoaning the contradictory nature of so much career-rock and the perceived stagnation of a lot of dance music or hip hop...the cyclical nature of the posts concerning these subjects is good for ILM newcomers like me, esp. if the previous thread ends up with 300 answers. i notice 'hip hop' threads seem to provoke the largest amount of posts because it appears there is still a lot of confusion and criticism of the genre due to both ignorance or wisdom...perhaps nothing new is being said but then thats not really a requirement for a successful forum - its just a nice bonus

that 'fremme neppe venette' thing really has to stop tho

― blueski, Monday, 28 October 2002 18:09 (twenty-three years ago)

you could be talking about life in general here tom, is the opposite to circularism resolution? is this what you're looking for? surely not?

― gareth (gareth), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:11 (twenty-three years ago)

Ronan I don't think it's much to do with ILM's being a pro-pop forum because a) it isn't, or only by comparison and b) I think most people do get individual posters' views on pop perfectly well and it's only when specific button-pushing (pro- or anti-) goes on that things get heated. But yes the same questions do come up on that topic - I just think "oh they don't understand us" is no use as an explanation.

Gareth - I think "development" rather than "resolution" is nearer what I'm talking about.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:14 (twenty-three years ago)

can't a certain level of development only come with relative stasis though, tom? (at least in terms of poster mix. "rogue elements" will always upend any sort of "progression", if only for a moment.)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:17 (twenty-three years ago)

''i notice 'hip hop' threads seem to provoke the largest amount of posts because it appears there is still a lot of confusion and criticism of the genre due to both ignorance or wisdom...perhaps nothing new is being said but then thats not really a requirement for a successful forum - its just a nice bonus''

well not really. its the biggest selling genre of music in the western world and so you can't really escape it so that's why more ppl will have an opinion onit than say, the latest mimeo record.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:21 (twenty-three years ago)

but you dont have to get involved in the next big debate about the thing was already discussed in depth last week/month/year/decade - leave it to the newbies and surely this is healthy enough...older threads on the same issue usually get linked to anyway

― blueski, Monday, 28 October 2002 18:23 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah Jess you may be right but short of limiting posting to subscribers only there's no way to combat that.

Maybe a "New to ILX? Thinking of posting regularly? Read this." link with links to some of the more typical threads might work as an adjunct to the FAQ.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:24 (twenty-three years ago)

Blueski that also makes a lot of sense. So maybe my frustration is born out of a feeling that the old-timer regulars - myself included obviously - aren't pushing each other as much as they used to, or might do were it not for the easier option of re-hashing old topics.

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:31 (twenty-three years ago)

tom- the faq idea will only work if ppl actually read FAQs as the first thing. i know i didn't until i was regular poster.

''So maybe my frustration is born out of a feeling that the old-timer regulars - myself included obviously - aren't pushing each other as much as they used to''

they are making you work at your job aren't they tom. but you post a few threads a week.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:36 (twenty-three years ago)

...hm. But Tom, that's a bit cart before the horse, isn't it, if the implication is that 'we need NEW topics to provoke better discussion, therefore let's create some.' Or is that not what you're saying?

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Well fantastic new insights on the old topics would work just as well Ned!

― Tom (Groke), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:38 (twenty-three years ago)

(I wasn't really singling out the pop thing for any reason, I should have said something like the Streets or Electroclash I guess since it's a less obvious recurring theme to pick, my point being that these topics come up so often because people want to have a dig at the things in question or argue about the subject, and because no amount of discourse is going to change someone's mind, and some people are just jerks. So it's not "oh they don't understand", it's more they think these things are silly and want to thrash out the same boring arguments about them, see the Tom Petty thread even)

― Ronan (Ronan), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:38 (twenty-three years ago)

Well fantastic new insights on the old topics would work just as well Ned!

To be sure. ;-) But we can't wish them into existence -- or rather, maybe rather than trying to see if they emerge in ferment, maybe said insights need time to develop before being offered up, away from discussion.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:40 (twenty-three years ago)

new original threads aren't going to come up unless radically new original music or situation or personalities comes into existence i think. I second ned on the revival of threads. it is tough for someone to come in with some amazing insight to start with. ppl will just give hisher opinion. a lot of insights come through in the heat of debate.

either that or we can get frank kogan to revive a lot more threads again. can we stalk him?

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Isn't the problem that in a forum dedicated to the analysis/celebration/vilification of music in all it's forms that nearly all the questions are a variation on the battle between people believing whether a style or performer is authentic or inauthentic. Even if the same question gets asked again and again the geat thing is the answers never the same.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Monday, 28 October 2002 18:56 (twenty-three years ago)

The downside of discouraging repetitive threads is you start to discourage newbies from starting/joining discussions. Obviously its a balance, and every newbie should probably lurk for a couple weeks before posting but... to discourage posting on any message board is tricky because if you lay that clamp on too hard, the board will dry up in a hurry.

― bnw (bnw), Monday, 28 October 2002 19:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Well, I think of all of this as just an extension of musical knowledge, similar to the idea of "like-minded individuals." The fact that the majority of us are audiophile fetishists doesn't really help the push for more magnaminous acceptance of new readers, and tends to push for rabid cut-downs of specific musical tastes, artists (like James Taylor, ha!). At the same time, the collective musical preferences here make for some great discussion, a majority of the time.

The circular nature of ILM is pretty much a mainstay, I think. It just works that way. There are moments when I read this and go "hum-drum." But sometimes, there is a burst of great questions and I learn about something new and interesting and kick ass.

― Gage-O, Monday, 28 October 2002 19:41 (twenty-three years ago)

fifteen years pass...

be stop? pic.twitter.com/3QzWsNdYqb
— Animals Being Jerks (@MeanAnimals) March 2, 2018

― mark s, Friday, 2 March 2018 22:15 (eight years ago)

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