The Berlin WHAT?

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Lyrics which the listener of the future (or today) won't understand or will look at anachronistically -

For instance, Bowie's "Heroes" and the Sex Pistol's "Anarchy In The UK" feature the Berlin Wall heavily - what will a listener in 20-30 years time make of that? That's an extreme example, for sure, but it's an interesting thing to think about re. the longevity of pop (as well as suggesting that in the long term lyric-based crit of pop will be even more irrelevant).

Another example - The Beatles' "Taxman". "Should 5% appear to small / Be thankful I don't take it all". When I first heard that I assumed it was an exaggeration for dramatic effect.

What references will date the most?

(This thread sparked by today's Guardian science which mentions Shakespeare referencing a recent earthquake in London, now obviously almost entirely forgotten...)

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 December 2002 12:59 (twenty-three years ago)

"I'm not gonna diss you on the internet, 'cause my mama taught me better than that".

― Nordicskillz (Nordicskillz), Thursday, 12 December 2002 13:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Cale /Eno - "Been There, Done That" - already outdated, makes "Wrong Way Up" kinda unlistenable ... Same for Joe Jackson's "Go For It!"

C.W. McCall - Boys, I think we got ourselves a "Convoy"

― dave225 (Dave225), Thursday, 12 December 2002 13:17 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm kind of talking about lyrics that refer to stuff you really can't remember or know about (or stuff which will get that way), rather than stuff which is dated cos it sounds naff now. Like, "I'm in the phone booth it's the one across the hall", opening "Hanging on the telephone" - in an era of mass market cellphones how long will phonebooths even exist? Most of the time you can get the context - "We're only making plans for Nigel / He has a future in British Steel" - even though the reference is to something which no longer exists...

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 December 2002 13:22 (twenty-three years ago)

"...Sit me here next to Britney Spears? Shit, Christina Aguilera better switch me chairs, so I can sit next to Carson Daly and Fred Durst..." From "The Real Slim Shady" by Eminem

Won't it be a grand day when pop culture forgets all four?

― nader (nader), Thursday, 12 December 2002 14:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Heh actually Nader is an example of the reference that bit back - from Buzzcocks "who he?" one-liner to presidential anti-Kingmaker.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 December 2002 14:52 (twenty-three years ago)

Not quite the same thing, but on "Poor Me" (January 1960) Adam Faith pronounces "when" as "w'hen" in a ridiculously mannered inter-war style, and it freaks me to think that such vocal mannerisms overlapped with the pop era at all.

Lyrical references? Well, "Taxman" is a good call. Any hint of high taxation, social collectivism, long waiting lists for telephones etc already sounds prehistoric even if radio stations still present the records as though they were short-term nostalgia. And talking of the Beatles, how many people now have any idea what "Meet The Wife" was?

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:01 (twenty-three years ago)

"Won't it be a grand day when pop culture forgets all four?"

It will be a truly wonderous day when pop culture forgets all FIVE!

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:13 (twenty-three years ago)

I was amazed how few of my contemporaries (at the time = 6th form students) seemed to know what "Enola Gay" referred to when OMD released that song in 1980 - I wonder how low that proportion would be amongst a comparable group today....

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:22 (twenty-three years ago)

immeasurably low, I suspect.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:24 (twenty-three years ago)

There are jewels in the crown of England's glory
And every jewel shines a thousand ways

Frankie Howerd, Noël Coward and garden gnomes
Frankie Vaughan, Kenneth Horne, Sherlock Holmes
Monty, Biggles and Old King Cole
In the pink or on the dole
Oliver Twist and Long John Silver
Captain Cook and Nelly Dean
Enid Blyton, Gilbert Harding
Malcolm Sargeant, Graham Greene (Graham Greene)

All the jewels in the crown of England's glory
Too numerous to mention, but a few
And every one could tell a different story
And show old England's glory something new

Nice bit of kipper and Jack the Ripper and Upton Park
Gracie, Cilla, Maxy Miller, Petula Clark
Winkles, Woodbines, Walnut Whips
Vera Lynn and Stafford Cripps
Lady Chatterley, Muffin the Mule
Winston Churchill, Robin Hood
Beatrix Potter, Baden-Powell
Beecham's powders, Yorkshire pud (Yorkshire pud)

With Billy Bunter, Jane Austen
Reg Hampton, George Formby
Billy Fury, Little Titch
Uncle Mac, Mr. Pastry and all
Uncle mac, Mr. Patry and all

allright england?
g’wan england
oh england

All the jewels in the crown of England's glory
Too numerous to mention, but a few
And every one could tell a different story
And show old England's glory something new

Somerset Maugham, Top Of The Form with the Boys' Brigade
Mortimer Wheeler, Christine Keeler and the Board of Trade
Henry Cooper, wakey wakey, England's labour
Standard Vanguard, spotted dick, England's workers
England's glory

(Ian Dury & The Blockheads)

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Any reference to cars, since in the future we shall all travel by hovercraft.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:47 (twenty-three years ago)

So "Cars" by Gary Numan is a nostalgia song of the future then?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:52 (twenty-three years ago)

a not too far-fetched future:

Video killed the radio star
Karen: "what's 'video'?"
Darren: "search me"

― Jeff W, Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Will all names in the future end in "-ren" then?

Should those of us whose names don't end in "-ren" be concerned?

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:55 (twenty-three years ago)

Yes!

― Jeffren, Thursday, 12 December 2002 15:59 (twenty-three years ago)

Seems only reasonable to me

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Where's Bill Grundy Now?

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:05 (twenty-three years ago)

I wonder if West Ham will ever move to a new stadium in Upminster or something like that? by that time, "Upton Park" might be the only meaningful reference in the Dury lyric quoted here. for many, it probably already is.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:05 (twenty-three years ago)

"I'm not in love with Juke Box Jury.
I'm not in love with Thank Your Lucky Stars.
I'm not in love with T'T'T'Twiggy.
Because I'm in love with Cathy McGowan"

Ready Steady Go - Generation X

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:07 (twenty-three years ago)

I suspect people will have forgotten what 'viagra' was way before Britney.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:14 (twenty-three years ago)

"We're talking 'bout Reaganomics"

Money's Too Tight To Mention - Simply Red.

Of course with a bit of luck no-one will remember Simply Red either.

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:15 (twenty-three years ago)

the Sex Pistol's "Anarchy In The UK" feature[s] the Berlin Wall heavily...
oops!

although - in the future "another council tenancy" will prolly be a mystery to more people than just Megadeth!

― zebedee, Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Haha... recently I listened to the old Italodisco hit "Hot Sun on Video" and was amazed at how futuristik and technowizzy they were trying to make terms like "video" and "remote control" sound.

Those things aren't obsolete yet, but they're as common to Western households as a carton of orange juice.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:19 (twenty-three years ago)

Robin, I would guess that Adam Faith's 'poor me' is less a throwback to post war England then a really bad attempt to do a hiccuping Buddy Holly impersonation.

― Billy Dods (Billy Dods), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:21 (twenty-three years ago)

Oops indeed, I should post threads after I've woken up I think.

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:21 (twenty-three years ago)

although - in the future "another council tenancy" will prolly be a mystery to more people than just Megadeth!

A lotta people have a problem figuring out that line. I blame Lydon's mushmouthed singing. What did Megadeth say instead?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:22 (twenty-three years ago)

actually I suspect the same thing, Billy: Faith was trying to copy "It Doesn't Matter Anymore" but ended up sounding ... like nobody would ever actually speak, or even sing. utterly bizarre.

― robin carmody (robin carmody), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Trucker convoys still exist.

― hstencil, Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:30 (twenty-three years ago)

JBR - not fit for work, as the saying goes, but go here and scroll down:
http://megadeth.rockmetal.art.pl/lyrics_sofar.html

― zebedee, Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:30 (twenty-three years ago)

That's what I thought he said.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Thursday, 12 December 2002 16:38 (twenty-three years ago)

"the woman on my party line's a nosy thing/she picks up her reciever when she knows it's my ring" (Hank Williams - it's from the late '40s I think - but anyway I must be of the last generation to remember what a "party line" is, we still had 'em in rural NZ in the late '60s/early '70s)

the Sex Pistols song w/ the Berlin Wall in is "Holidays In The Sun", no?

― unknown or illegal user (doorag), Thursday, 12 December 2002 20:35 (twenty-three years ago)

oh someone already pointed that out huh? sorry

― unknown or illegal user (doorag), Thursday, 12 December 2002 20:36 (twenty-three years ago)

The Kinks have a song called "Party Line"...which *I* don't know the meaning of. What is a party line?

― Paula G., Thursday, 12 December 2002 20:44 (twenty-three years ago)

a bunch of phone connections on the same line. used in rural areas in the old days. you're only supposed to pick up the phone when it's your ring code (ours was a long ring then 2 short ones, as i recall) but the trad country way of picking up gossip was to pick it up whatever rings sounded & listen in. i used to do this sometimes as a little kid but i never heard anything remotely interesting.

― unknown or illegal user (doorag), Thursday, 12 December 2002 20:50 (twenty-three years ago)

Aha! now I understand. Thanks.

Now if someone will please explain what a Tamborine Man is...

― Paula G., Thursday, 12 December 2002 21:05 (twenty-three years ago)

dont know the song, but couldnt Party Line also refer to "toeing the party line" as in politics? ie, agreeing with the stated doctrine - conformism?

― gareth (gareth), Thursday, 12 December 2002 21:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Any references to the NME..

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 12 December 2002 23:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Ministry's "N.W.O" (New World Order)

VISION THING by the Sisters of Mercy

...both invoking Bush sr.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 04:52 (twenty-three years ago)

re party lines -- there's also a Hank Williams, Sr. song about nosy neighbors listening into private phonecalls on party lines -- called "Mind Your Own Business," appropriately enough. and isn't there also an old Rolling Stones song about party lines?

the ramones' "53rd and 3rd" and elton john's "island girl" are also kinda antiquated, inasmuch as they talk about hookers, pimps and junkies in a part of Manhattan where none of the foregoing do their thing any more.

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 13 December 2002 06:03 (twenty-three years ago)

Ooh, good one, Tad.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 06:06 (twenty-three years ago)

and, given his bent for topical satire, there are loads of Zappa songs that must already be totally incomprehensible to those who didn't live through certain historical periods -- such as "poofter's froth wyoming plans ahead" and "200 years old" (both about the 1976 bicentennial), "dickie's such an asshole" (though who can forget mr. nixon?), all of those songs about eighties televangelists like jimmy swaggart, and the countless allusions to otherwise-forgotten tv commercials and pop-culture people. though given the Monkey King's penchant for picking Raygun retreads, maybe some of the late-eighties stuff ain't so dated anymore.

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 13 December 2002 06:13 (twenty-three years ago)

Jane's Addiction's "Ted, Just Admit It" (about serial killer Ted Bundy).

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 06:18 (twenty-three years ago)

"Get a pocket computer, try to do what you used to do, yeah." -Blondie, "Picture This"

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 13 December 2002 14:45 (twenty-three years ago)

Tad that's the song duane was quoting! "If I wanna honkytonk around til two or three, brother that's my headache don't worry bout me" ahhhhh timeless

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 13 December 2002 15:14 (twenty-three years ago)

"Kepp your hand upon the dollar and your eye upon the scale"

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Friday, 13 December 2002 15:42 (twenty-three years ago)

Gotta be there at the right time of night, heh heh.

― hstencil, Friday, 13 December 2002 15:44 (twenty-three years ago)

53rd and 3rd is like near Sutton Place and the Citicorp Building and all that... I can't imagine it ever having been a red-light district.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Friday, 13 December 2002 15:50 (twenty-three years ago)

It was strictly a pick-up area for gay men. Dee Dee Ramone used to hustle there to pay for drugs. Lovely, eh?

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 19:25 (twenty-three years ago)

There's a porn shop on 53rd between 2nd and 1st, I think.

Don't ask me how I know.

Okay, so here it is: before I moved to NYC this fall, I was put up at a corpo apartment at 55th and 2nd. Used to walk from 53rd & 3rd all the time.

― hstencil, Friday, 13 December 2002 19:28 (twenty-three years ago)

That might be "Come Again" the Erotic Emporium....which is closer to Lexington than Third, if'n I'm not mistaken.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 21:04 (twenty-three years ago)

Naw this is some place with a prominent X in the name, but I can't remember what it is.

― hstencil, Friday, 13 December 2002 21:26 (twenty-three years ago)

I heard Sting's "Russians" on the radio the other day and while I do of course realize that it sounded enourmously simplistic and heavy handed at the time, I began to have exactly these sort of thoughts and marvelled at how utterly irrelevant and BIZARRE it sounds now.

― Kim (Kim), Friday, 13 December 2002 21:36 (twenty-three years ago)

Simillarly, "It's a Mistake" by Men at Work ruminates on the then purportedly warlike Russians.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Listening to Devo's first record this afternoon, and it struck me that "Space Junk" won't make too much sense to folks in the future (it being about Skylab and whatnot). Though, I suppose things could still fall from space in the future, it seems like such a 70's type of phobia.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:10 (twenty-three years ago)

"The Sun Shines Down on Me" by Daniel Johnston

In the future there will be no sun.

― Curtis Stephens, Friday, 13 December 2002 22:16 (twenty-three years ago)

"Living Through Another Cuba" by XTC.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:21 (twenty-three years ago)

"Son of Sam" by the Dead Boys (.......as if anyone's really going to still be listening to the Dead Boys ten years from now....does anyone even still?)

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Someone may have mentioned this, but ala the SPECIALS C/D thread:

"Free Nelson Mandella" by Specials AKA

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:23 (twenty-three years ago)

you mean "Son of Sam" by Chain Gang?

― hstencil, Friday, 13 December 2002 22:24 (twenty-three years ago)

"Bullet" by the Misfits (detailing...somewhat surreally....Glenn Danzig's take on JFK's last day....mistakenly referring to the late prez at one point as "Jonathan of Kennedy," which is wrong...but probably sounded nice to Glenn. Poetic license and all.)

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:25 (twenty-three years ago)

No, I meant "Son of Sam" by the Dead Boys....written by guitarist Jimmy Zero, as found on..

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre400/e482/e482850vfdo.jpg and http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc600/c618/c61855fgr5e.jpg

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:28 (twenty-three years ago)

I bet the Chain Gang song is better. ; )

― hstencil, Friday, 13 December 2002 22:30 (twenty-three years ago)

Yer probably right.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:32 (twenty-three years ago)

he is right.

― unknown or illegal user (doorag), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:34 (twenty-three years ago)

You need this, Alex.

― hstencil, Friday, 13 December 2002 22:36 (twenty-three years ago)

B-52's, "Give Me Back My Man"

I just happened to be listening to it, and the line
"walking out of Korvettes, package in her hand" is going to be pretty confusing. In fact, it might be confusing already.

― J (Jay), Friday, 13 December 2002 22:44 (twenty-three years ago)

Besides the message, what always amused me about that song was how Sting took the one somber passage -- the only somber passage -- in what is actually a very light-hearted piece (Prokofiev's Lieutenant Kije).

Only Sting, the pompous prat that he is ... but I digress from this thread's premise!

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 13 December 2002 23:17 (twenty-three years ago)

please explain taxman, was there a point in time with 95% tax rate in the uk or something??

― ron (ron), Saturday, 14 December 2002 01:01 (twenty-three years ago)

please explain taxman, was there a point in time with 95% tax rate in the uk or something??

yes. and there was also once a 90% tax rate in the USA (during the Fifties, I think).

― Tad (llamasfur), Saturday, 14 December 2002 01:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeah the top band for income tax was set at 95%.

― Tom (Groke), Saturday, 14 December 2002 02:32 (twenty-three years ago)

"DDR" and "Soviet Union", from Deutsch-Amerikanische Freundschaft's 'Kebabträume' are verily (particularly the latter) amongst the words that i truly hope will be incomprehensible and entirely irrelevant in the future, for evermore

― t\'\'t (t''t), Sunday, 15 December 2002 02:51 (twenty-three years ago)

My mother says it made her a bit sad when "Taxman" came out, that the Beatles had to complain about the money they were making. It humanized them in a bad way for her.

― Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Sunday, 15 December 2002 21:35 (twenty-three years ago)

I was just playing that track the other day and thinking "yeah Korvette's is long gone.."

Alex, you don't still listen to the Dead Boys? I'm surprised... *I* still do!

― Sean (Sean), Sunday, 15 December 2002 22:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Of course I do (I live in the past, remember?), but I think you and I are in a minority.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 15 December 2002 22:11 (twenty-three years ago)

"Bullet" by the Misfits (detailing...somewhat surreally....Glenn Danzig's take on JFK's last day....

Or alternatively:
"No more messing 'round, playing with Monroe
(ohohoh playing with Monroe)
no more turning on the middle aged ladies
(ohohoh the middle aged ladies)
all I remember was your sporty young hairstyle
(ohohoh your sporty young hairstyle)
all I remember was the catholic day

Kennedy died in '63
poor John.F-
Kennedy's wife with his brain on her knee
poor Jackie-"

Catholic Day - Adam & The Ants

― Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 16 December 2002 14:29 (twenty-three years ago)

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