TS: t.A.T.u.'s <i>200 KM/H in the Wrong Lane</i> vs. the Minutemen's <i>Double Nickels on the Dime</i>

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Reckless driving vs. cautious driving ("double nickels" = "55" = the speed at which Sammy Hagar cannot drive; "on the dime" = "on the nose")

"How Soon is Now?" vs. "Dr. Wu" ('80s indie/postpunk existential-angst narrative covered by glossy studio project associated w/ two frontpeople vs. existential-angst narrative originally by glossy studio project associated w/ two frontpeople and covered by '80s indie/postpunk band)

"Do You Want New Wave Or Do You Want The Truth?" or do you want Trevor Horn?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 14:36 (twenty-three years ago)

I want my MTV.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 15:05 (twenty-three years ago)

I simply cannot resist the tsunami of rockism welling up at this question!

t.A.t.u. album = flimsy, incidental by-product of fleeting, vaguely exploitative gimmick-pop. Destined to be forgotten.

Minutemen album = Landmark album by inspired, maverick trio worthy of sweeping adjectives like "seminal" and, dare I suggest, "timeless."

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 9 March 2003 15:22 (twenty-three years ago)

After writing thousand words reviews of the band, and defending my love of them to Starsailor fans worldwide, I still can't put my finger on why I love t.a.T.u. that much. I think the gimmick, rather than allowing them to get away with any old rubbish, actually allows them to get away with more. It's just... there's not anything that actually sounds like THAT. It's a bit dance, a bit Europop, a bit rock, a bit angst, a bit this, a bit that, and just this whole swell of ideas. It's just like one mass brainstorming session, except good, obviously.

Oh yeah, it's better than the Minutemen, obviously.

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Sunday, 9 March 2003 15:26 (twenty-three years ago)

Oh yeah, it's better than the Minutemen, obviously.

And with a great rushing **WHOOOOOOOOOSHHHHH**, Dom's already questionable credibility took a perilous flight out the nearest window.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 9 March 2003 15:31 (twenty-three years ago)

Sometimes Alex is like my own little inner child given voice.

This is one of those times. Not about Dom's credibility, as i've not been around long enough to cess that. But i suspect his and my tastes don't overlap all that much.

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 9 March 2003 15:34 (twenty-three years ago)

Also: obv "How Soon Is Now?" never explicitly goes into matters of sexual orientation, but it's strongly identified with homosexual longing (in both the Smiths and t.A.T.u. versions). Some interpreters of Steely Dan's body of work see homosexual subtext in a good deal of the band's lyrics -- and it can be (has been?) argued that the "triangle" in "Dr. Wu" (between Katy, the male Dr. Wu, and the protagonist) is a bisexual one.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 15:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Question, JBR. How is "How Soon is Now" strongly identified with homosexual longing as opposed to just longing for someone else to be with period?

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 9 March 2003 16:05 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.tatugirls.com/gallery/images/tatu03.jpg
http://www.hootpage.com/mmen85h.jpg

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 16:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Question, JBR. How is "How Soon is Now" strongly identified with homosexual longing as opposed to just longing for someone else to be with period?

Like I said, the lyrics aren't explicit, but Morrissey's persona as an openly queer man is so well-known that it's hard not to impose that on to the song.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 16:10 (twenty-three years ago)

Morrissey's persona as an openly queer man....

Queer? Maybe. Openly? Not sure about that.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 9 March 2003 16:16 (twenty-three years ago)

The sun shines out of our what now?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 16:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I like/own both, but Tatu gets their point across in like, 8 songs and some remixes. Minutemen push it for 40+. My love of short albums forces me to give it to Tatu.

Though I'm not a big fan of either the Steely Dan or Smiths covers.

I've got a big CD collection, so I can include new wave (Trevor Horn) AND the truth (Minutemen). 3 Way Tie For Last flatout sucks though. This'd be easier if that was the Minutemen album in question.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 17:18 (twenty-three years ago)

I'm not sure that i agree, JBR. I heard "How Soon is Now" looooong before i ever heard a single thing about Moz' sexual orientation. Looking at it now, it's easy to say that it's a paean to homosexual longing, but hearing it without hearing anything about Morrisey himself, i find it difficult to reach that conclusion. But then i was never into extra-textual reading requirements.

And yes, i'd known gay people before i heard the single in question.

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 9 March 2003 18:33 (twenty-three years ago)

I have to go with Matt. Unrequited love, longing, shame, shyness, etc. cross all sexual boundaries. I always thought Mozz was asexual or bi. The only song that ever struck me as a flat-out GAY song was "Wide To Receive."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 18:41 (twenty-three years ago)

eep! That should say, "back when I first heard him I always thought Mozz was asexual or bi."

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 18:42 (twenty-three years ago)

Do you want New Wave or do you want Rock n' Roll?!

Minutemen. doy.

― Andrzej B. (Andrzej B.), Sunday, 9 March 2003 18:53 (twenty-three years ago)

I don't recall Morrissey openly announcing being gay, every time I ever read an interview with him, he'd dodge the question. I'm not a fan so this could be different, but I never viewed his songs as being openly gay, How Soon Is Now included.

― Ally (mlescaut), Sunday, 9 March 2003 19:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Morrissey has gone out of his way NOT to come out as queer: he's written love songs about both genders (I don't think "How Soon Is Now" is particularly a love song at all, mind) and claimed to be totally uninterested in sex for years.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Sunday, 9 March 2003 19:33 (twenty-three years ago)

Double Nickels on the Dime seems to try to be all things to all people, and hell, it almost succeeds. 19 years later, and its still a confounding and moving album...and easier to dance to than 200KM/H. I've nothing against chart-pop but, if I have to take sides...
"The Roar of the Masses Could Be Farts"

― Ryan McKay (Ryan McKay), Sunday, 9 March 2003 19:50 (twenty-three years ago)

TaTu, obviously. Rockists ~~stole my candy~~ convinced me to import DNotD, & I've never hated a canonical album on first listen as much as that - the voices, the "hilarious" song titles, the bass playing & so on etc. The first CD I ever sold (which Echo were only too glad to take - I picked up a 2ndhand copy of the Pet Shop Boys Discography with the voucher). & TaTu was great - love the single, waiting for the album to become available here at non-import prices.

― EssKay (Elisabeth), Sunday, 9 March 2003 19:53 (twenty-three years ago)

Queer? Maybe. Openly? Not sure about that.

Fine, fine. Change it to "openly ambiguous," then. But humor me a little for believing that your average vaguely worldly person would venture a guess that Mozz is Not Straight.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 20:33 (twenty-three years ago)

t.A.T.u. = fine, fun, gimmicky, better than one thinks, etc.
minutemen = fine, fun, political, better than one remembers, etc.

I give to Minutemen because it was really important to me in a way that maybe t.A.T.u. will be really important to kids nowadayz.

― Neudonym, Sunday, 9 March 2003 20:37 (twenty-three years ago)

But the point is that he's not Not Straight either. He goes out of his way to be neither, I think. Which makes it harder to read How Soon Is Now as a homosexual longing anthem, it doesn't seem to have struck many people that way which is why it's an interesting interpretation.

― Ally (mlescaut), Sunday, 9 March 2003 20:40 (twenty-three years ago)

I didn't say it was a homosexual longing anthem. I said it was an orientation-neutral song that takes on interesting shades of meaning when one thinks about the sexuality of the person singing it.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 20:54 (twenty-three years ago)

t.A.T.u. might be better; their picture is 2px wider than the Minute Men's. They've clearly cropped in anticipation of this moment.

I admire Neudonym's answer though I confess I can't see the inspirational qualities, or potential inspirational qualities, he does (NB It seems like the Minutemen are composed of nothing but.) However if t.A.T.u.'s example appears to encourage collegiate types to start wistfully touching each other more often and in more places, I will be cheering, fuck the music.

― Warren Baltic (tracerhand), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:05 (twenty-three years ago)

Warren Baltic

Do you live in Downtown Brooklyn, by any chance? Or is this your real name?

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Sorry. I probably put those words in your mouth, Jody. Hyperbole bites me in the ass again. Anthony put what i was trying to say better than i did.

However, i won't concede the point that by looking at "HSiN" in and of itself (without looking into any of the external assertions/assumptions of Moz' orientation) it identifies more closely with either the hetero- or homosexual side of the equation.

What makes it more or less interesting if it is indeed boy/boy or girl/girl as opposed to boy/girl or girl/boy? Aside from the gender/orientation politics.

Agh. I'm just babbling here. What in the text of the song gives you a clue of the orientation of the singer? And if there aren't any, then what is to prevent making just about any song more interesting by turning it into a same-sex thing?

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:08 (twenty-three years ago)

Songs that are possibly about homosexual longing on Double Nickels On The Dime:

"Two Beads At The End"
"Nature Without Man"
"The Big Foist"
"You Need The Glory"
"Please Don't Be Gentle With Me"
"Three Car Jam"

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:10 (twenty-three years ago)

I give up.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:11 (twenty-three years ago)

nah, nah, nah, Jody. I get it! It's perfectly understandable to hear Mozz songs as being from a homosexual perspective. It's highly probable the only reason I didn't was being a straight guy, I made all the songs be about girls in my head. I think it was your use of the phrase "strongly identified" that got people all tizzied.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:13 (twenty-three years ago)

WELL I DIDN'T KNOW THAT AT THIS STAGE IN HIS CAREER HE HADN'T MADE A DEFINITIVE STATEMENT ABOUT HIS SEXUALITY. I THOUGHT HE WAS "OUT." I WAS HASTY IN MY ASSUMPTION. Can we get past this now?

*clears throat*

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:16 (twenty-three years ago)

ok. More phallic songs by the Minutemen (the trick is to forget the actual songs at let your dirty mind run WILD with the titles):

"Working Men Are Pissed"
"I Shook Hands"
"Below The Belt"
"The Big Lounge Scene"
"Party With Me Punker"
"Joy Jam"
"Little Man With A Gun In His Hand"
"Beacon Sighted Through The Fog"
"The Anchor"
"The Big Stick"
"Just Another Soldier"
"Situations At Hand"
"Hittin' The Bong"

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:22 (twenty-three years ago)

(pssst, Anthony, I can't believe you left out "More Spiel")

― donut bitch (donut), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:34 (twenty-three years ago)

dammit! good call, donut bitch! I'm really enjoying imagining the Minutemen were some unknown producers attempt to market the homosexual longing and frustration of the fairly-macho hardcore scene. Album sides named after band members, the loving "Take 5, D". There's a lot of fun to be had there.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:36 (twenty-three years ago)

a lot of bean and fart songs too, reaffirming a certain anal fixation to go with the car/boat phallic one.

― Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Sunday, 9 March 2003 21:37 (twenty-three years ago)

Yeesh. I wasn't trying to Geir you into submission, JBR. I just wanted some textual evidence or an answer to why "HSiN" is "more interesting" if it's based on homosexual longing. Gayness doesn't make a song more/less interesting IMNSHO. Insight and a little glimpse of the truths of life can, however.

This'll be the last i say on this issue.

― Matt Maxwell (Matt M.), Sunday, 9 March 2003 22:04 (twenty-three years ago)

The song isn't "more interesting" if it's based on homosexual longing. The added perspective is interesting. A bit of biographical info to chew on. That's all.

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Sunday, 9 March 2003 22:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Conversation between me & my friend Torry, ten years or so ago:

Torry: You think Neil Tennant is gay? Is there stuff in his lyrics about that?
Me: Is there the _slightest hint_ that he's not gay in _any_ first-person Pet Shop Boys lyric?

― Douglas (Douglas), Sunday, 9 March 2003 23:29 (twenty-three years ago)

When I first heard "How Soon Is Now" in the summer of 1984 (or thereabouts....I remember them playing it in between "Master & Servant" and Killing Joke's "Love Like Blood" on the third floor of Danceteria), I didn't know Morrissey from a hole in the wall, nor even remotely anything about his sexual orientation, but -- being a happlessly forlorn adolescent -- I completely identified with its gloriously melancholly atmosphere of desperate isolation. I don't think the context of Morrissey's enigmatic sexuality lends nor deprives the song of anything. I just think the song sums up one aspect of the human experience seamlessly, regardless of your placement therein.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Sunday, 9 March 2003 23:36 (twenty-three years ago)

I think "How Soon Is Now" (which I think I heard before I ever heard of a band calle the Smiths) moved me partly because it was a point blank admission of basic emotional needs at a time in my life when I was shifting from sometimes denying my loneliness, to saying, yes, of course I've been lonely and I want much the same thing that most other people want.

― Rockist Scientist, Sunday, 9 March 2003 23:46 (twenty-three years ago)

I haven't heard the tatu alb but its a good thread. I rarely read any of this stuff into lyrics and its an interesting angle on double nickels (one of the great recs of all time for me)

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Monday, 10 March 2003 10:10 (twenty-three years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.

TS: t.A.T.u.'s 200 KM/H in the Wrong Lane vs. the Minutemen's Double Nickels on the Dime