Taking sides: INDIE ROCK vs. MAINSTREAM HIP-HOP

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It's what you really want. You are a criminal and a parvenu.

Pavement vs. Mystikal

Slint vs. Lil Kim

Mogwai vs. Cam'ron

June of 44 vs. Ja Rule

Belle and Sebastian vs. Big Pun

Guided by Voices vs. Jay-Z

Sonic Youth vs. 50 Cent

Tortoise vs. Busta Rhymes

― johnw, Wednesday, 26 March 2003 19:48 (twenty-three years ago)

on its worst date, mainstream hip-hop kills anything with two basses and a vibraphone dead

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 19:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Tortoise vs. Busta Rhymes

This would make for a phenomenal mash-up.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 19:51 (twenty-three years ago)

*starting to feel k-bad 'cause my definition of "mainstream" rappers isn't quite up to speed (fer me, "mainstream" = "was on MTV" at some point, and thus includes Outkast, Wyclef, Lauryn, Common, Cee-Lo, The Roots, etc.) with the actual definition of "mainstream"*

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 19:54 (twenty-three years ago)

PH33R MY R4MP4N7 6R4MM4R & 5YN74X 3RR0R5!!!

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 19:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Do not fear his judgement errors

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:02 (twenty-three years ago)

consistency is the hobgoblin under bridges

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:07 (twenty-three years ago)

my bourgie-lib brane protests but Jesus you're right.

― g--ff c-nn-n (gcannon), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Those are spectacular pairings. The Pavement/Mystikal one in particular rings hella troo.

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:09 (twenty-three years ago)

i like slint vs lil kim!

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Malkmus singing "shake ya ass/watch yourself" = NO FURTHER MUSIC EVER NEED BE RECORDED

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:13 (twenty-three years ago)

at little as two and three quarters years ago i would've thought it unthinkable but mystikal. they're playing "wizzy wow" a lot here, and when he announces his presence with that trademark (maybe patent pending) door-creak sound fx vocal thing (i could try transcribing it as "eeeeuuurrrk!" but that wouldn't work) it made me so happy. almost makes the oldest hiphop trope seem as funny fresh as it was however many years ago you started listening to hiphop ("I'M LAYIN WITH YOU BUT I AIN'T STAYIN WITH YOU"!. like a thug version of starry sarah.

i haven't heard notorious k.i.m (is it any cop?), what i've heard of her output i (ultimately) find deeply mediocre. slint, just for spite. (i think i thought 'good morning captain' was scary and good when i downloaded it 4 years ago. i probably wouldn't like it now but you never know.)

mogwai. i don't particularly like 'em, i guess they're the pinnacle of a not-that-great indie trick. i still love 'providence' off daydream nation so there's probably some mogwai songs i'd enjoy that i haven't heard yet. "boy" was nice, the mariah carey thing is alright, the first 4 seconds of "hey ma" are fantastic but at the end of the day 'EH'.

haven't heard june of 44 (i vaguely remember them sounding harder than i wanted my indie to be when i wanted indie)(and nothing else). so ja rule cos i like MSG. (yo sterlsci)

i've heard a little belle & sebastian which left me cold. i've heard big pun like once, but i've read some things about him that make me think i might like him. in that frere-jones 50 cent review did he mention pun as a 50 reference point? i think it was big l. i forget. anyway, uh, let's say tie cos i don't feel like being obvious and putting the hiphop guy over the indie guy just cos he's hiphop. haha take that indie guilt haterz!

jay-z. i mean really now. (i've also decided that 'can i live' is his best song. for many reasons that i'll collect somewhere else.)

sonic youth. they still make pretty records (i wanna hear 'nyc ghosts and flowers' one day), i think daydream nation is super (and gorgeous and expansive and everything the indie canon says about it), it's my default 'fall asleep to' record (in a good way, like the baby and the flying saucer attack white noise records). 'in da club' is also super, 50's mumble may end up being one of those great insiduous pop things, "heat" has this nice blurry "i ain't playin" bit in the chorus that i find unexpectedly emotion. but he's a 7 out of 10 at best.

uhm i find it hard to really love busta, but he has some terrific singles and tortoise don't.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Ha ha, I've heard Malkmus rap. "Robin Turns 26" to thread!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:16 (twenty-three years ago)

PH33R MY R4MP4N7 etc

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:17 (twenty-three years ago)

Ludacris = Mark E Smith

― autovac (autovac), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:18 (twenty-three years ago)

actually i have PROVED BY SCIENCE that "goldheart mountaintop queen directory" (if i got the name right it's a minor miracle) is more likely to make a (non-white, in case you want to bring race into this but let's not) 6 yr old laugh than "big pimpin'". so we'll give gbv that.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:20 (twenty-three years ago)

lud-ah! (yesyes default easy-to-do mark e. smith joke, SO WOTah)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:21 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.duesseldorf-today.rp-online.de/tonight/musikstadt/photos/mouse_on_mars/mouse_on_mars_farbe_193x200.jpg
vs.

http://www.vh1.com/shared/media/images/sn_legacy/sonicnet/assetmedia/bands/images/1169_1310.gif

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Ma$e On Mars - Haarlem Whorlwhip (Suturday Nitre Mix)

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:25 (twenty-three years ago)

dammit jess beat me to the ma$e on mars thing (which i guess was the implied joke anyway)

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:27 (twenty-three years ago)

Somebody needs to make a Ma$e on Mars boot like right now.

― original bgm, Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:29 (twenty-three years ago)

I'll take the indie rock all these people don't want, thanks -- where can I put this shitty 50 Cent record? ok cool, thanx

― J0hn Darn1elle (J0hn Darn1elle), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:35 (twenty-three years ago)

"The Dismemberment Plan Gets Rich Or Dies Trying"

― Nick Mirov (nick), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:39 (twenty-three years ago)

(the additional irony being, of course, that they died trying.)

― Nick Mirov (nick), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 20:40 (twenty-three years ago)

y'all are too young to remember the dreadful judgement night soundtrack...

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 22:24 (twenty-three years ago)

I liked a lot of the Judgement Night Sndtrk. Del the Funky Homosapien + Dinosaur Jr. = a fuckin' rad track.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 22:27 (twenty-three years ago)

yeah! that soundtrack roXXed! esp onyx, Boo-YAA, and yes "the missing link" my favourite ever Dinosaur Jr tune. and slayer vs Ice-T.

big pun vs belle & seb would be a monster face-off. Pun would shade it though, rest in peace big guy.

― kieron, Wednesday, 26 March 2003 22:45 (twenty-three years ago)

The Negro Problem vs. Eminem

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 22:46 (twenty-three years ago)

Flip it and reverse it: INDIE HIP-HOP vs. MAINSTREAM ROCK

Sage Francis vs. Creed
Mr. Lif vs. U2
Atmosphere vs. Good Charlotte

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 23:06 (twenty-three years ago)

(apparently no matter what, RAP ALWAYS WINS)

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 23:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Atmosphere vs Good Charlotte is such a frightening concept, I don't know where to begin.

― Bobby D Gray (bedhead), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 23:17 (twenty-three years ago)

*wonders if his Judgment Night sndtrk was sold to a used cd store...probaly*

― oops (Oops), Wednesday, 26 March 2003 23:25 (twenty-three years ago)

I bet you can buy it back for $3

Funniest collab ever: CYPRESS HILL AND PEARL JAM

― Nate Patrin (Nate Patrin), Thursday, 27 March 2003 01:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Are we supposed to pick which one's been the most violated through cultural gentrification?

― Eric H. (Eric H.), Thursday, 27 March 2003 01:56 (twenty-three years ago)

"Flip it and reverse it: INDIE HIP-HOP vs. MAINSTREAM ROCK"

I seriously can't think of one example where Mainstream Rock even gets close to winning.

― David Allen, Thursday, 27 March 2003 02:10 (twenty-three years ago)

funk fusion vs mainstream rock?

― electric sound of jim (electricsound), Thursday, 27 March 2003 02:14 (twenty-three years ago)

Good Charolette trumps Lil Bow wow

― girl scout heroin (iamamonkey), Thursday, 27 March 2003 02:27 (twenty-three years ago)

indie rock wins haha

― JP Albin (John Paul Albin), Thursday, 27 March 2003 03:00 (twenty-three years ago)

i'd take lil kim over slint, but sonic youth vs. 50 cent? um

― geeta, Thursday, 27 March 2003 05:37 (twenty-three years ago)

to me Indie vs Hip Hop is pasty losers who spend too much time on line vs survivors who know what the real world is.

Guess who I'll take.

― That Girl (thatgirl), Thursday, 27 March 2003 06:43 (twenty-three years ago)

Is Andrew WK mainstream rock?

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 27 March 2003 09:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Good question, actually.

Andrew WK vs Ludacris. Make it happen, please.

― Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 27 March 2003 09:57 (twenty-three years ago)

Even the most pathetic of "indie" rock (Matchbox 20, Dave Matthews etc.) is better than hip-hop.

― Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Thursday, 27 March 2003 11:41 (twenty-three years ago)

Bugger off.

― Nick Southall (Nick Southall), Thursday, 27 March 2003 11:45 (twenty-three years ago)

If Matchbox 20 & DMB is "indie rock", then my name is luka and I live on the second floor and Santa Claus is President of the USA and monkeys are actually fish and oxygen is nitrogen and the world ended in 2000.

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 27 March 2003 13:48 (twenty-three years ago)

OMIGOD! nickalicious has discovered the TRUTH! He must be captured and re-indoctrinated!
SIEZE HIM!!

― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Thursday, 27 March 2003 13:54 (twenty-three years ago)

Patrin's examples of "mainstream rock" are fucked (except good Good Charlotte maybe). What about SOAD, Linkin' Park, Evanescence, Audioslave, Foo Fighters, QOTSA, AFI, Godsmack, Chevelle, Seether, The White Stripes, Saliva, etc.?

― Sterling Clover (s_clover), Thursday, 27 March 2003 17:29 (twenty-three years ago)

Evanescence vs. R Kelly where both artists declare themselves proud Christians but their sound and image lead listeners to think otherwise (i.e. the Jars of Clay/P.O.D. problem)?

3 Doors Down vs. Field Mob where both artists are 100% Southern and don't want you to forget it; both traffic in stereotypes and embrace them, building their identities off of traits most people mock (you can hear this on the awe-inspiring Field Mob record, but you've gotta talk to 3DD to see it, though their recent pro-war anthem hints at it).

― Yanc3y (ystrickler), Thursday, 27 March 2003 17:40 (twenty-three years ago)

*wonders if his Judgment Night sndtrk was sold to a used cd store...probaly*
-- oops ([email protected]

Well whatayaknow? I still have it...now, the question is whether I should've sold it...

― oops (Oops), Thursday, 27 March 2003 17:58 (twenty-three years ago)

White Stripes vs. Latyrx
System of a Down vs. The Coup

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 27 March 2003 18:09 (twenty-three years ago)

Whoops, trying again:

White Stripes vs. Latyrx for reasons I already forgot.

System of a Down vs. The Coup 'cause both released quite leftist politically charged albums on Sept. 11th, 2001 and also 'cause both have pretty good senses of humor and use them pretty effectively. And 'cause they both RAWQ!

― nickalicious (nickalicious), Thursday, 27 March 2003 18:12 (twenty-three years ago)

Holy shit, with the except of The White Stripes, and QOTSA, all of those bands are atrocities against music.

― David Allen, Thursday, 27 March 2003 18:28 (twenty-three years ago)

Hmm.. I'll take Mystikal over Pavement, Slint over Lil Kim, Mogwai over Cam'ron, Ja Rule over June of 44, B&S over Big Pun (even though I hate Belle and Sebastian), Guided by Voices over Jay-Z, Sonic Youth over 50 Cent, and Busta Rhymes over Tortoise.

I believe that puts me at: 3/8 hip-hop artists, and 5/8 indie rockers. But I wouldn't even take this seriously anyway, because indie rock and mainstream hip-hop are almost completely autonomous spheres, the proverbial apples and oranges if you will. There's very little to compare them on, they both have their respective merits and flaws (the lyrical vapidity of mainstream hip-hop, the mind-numbing prtentiousness of most indie rock). That is all, thank you.

― justin s., Friday, 28 March 2003 02:22 (twenty-three years ago)

Wasn't there, somewhere at the dawn of time, a release that paired J. Lydon and A. Bambaataa? And wasn't it kinda unlistenable?

― Bo, Friday, 28 March 2003 05:36 (twenty-three years ago)

"World Destruction" is on the short list of Bill Laswell productions that aren't unlistenable, actually.

― EC, Friday, 28 March 2003 05:57 (twenty-three years ago)

That damn Laswell, provoking me into the use of double negatives.

"World Destruction" is a fine listen.

― EC, Friday, 28 March 2003 06:07 (twenty-three years ago)

I like "World Destruction". It gets a little repetitive at the end, but it's otherwise quite marvelous. Oddly enough, it was used to great effect on an episode of the Sopranos... can't remember which one, though.

Forgive my total ignorance, but would Bambaataa be considered mainstream hip-hop? Something tells me no, but I wouldn't embarrass myself by taking a guess.

― justin s., Friday, 28 March 2003 08:34 (twenty-three years ago)

I always hated "World Destruction" (typical Laswell less than the sum of the parts) until it popped up in the Sopranos, where it worked very well, and I couldn't get the damn song out of my head for days. Bambaataa's mainstream hip-hop, you don't get the mainstream-undie divide til 89 at the very, very earliest, and it doesn't really kick in in earnest until the mid-nineties.

― James Blount (James Blount), Friday, 28 March 2003 08:50 (twenty-three years ago)

this list just proves that i'm not as "indie rock boy" as i used to think i was. i mean, i'd take just about all of the mainstream hip-hop over the corresponding indie rockers. some of these comparisons are really gaming the system, though, don't ya think? (i mean, Jay-Z stomps Guided by Voices so badly it isn't funny).

the only indie rockers i'd pick in the list would be belle and sebastian and sonic youth. the toughest is tortoise v. busta rhymes (going with busta, who intellectually i know blows tortoise off the map but i still like tortoise enough to make it a tough choice).

― Tad (llamasfur), Friday, 28 March 2003 08:59 (twenty-three years ago)

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