RFI: James Brown, David Bowie, and "Fame"

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I am perplexed - I have heard it alleged that Bowie ripped off a song by the Hardest Working Man in Show Business (possibly with the title "Hot") for "Fame". "Fame" is clearly a fairly standard-style funk riff, so I'm assuming a pretty direct re-appropriation is behind this allegation... but is this at all true? If so, does anybody know the specific JB song, and what album it's on? I was kinda surprised that I haven't heard of this before, especially considering I own large amounts of both Bowie and JBs 70s output...

― Shakey Mo Collier, Wednesday, 4 June 2003 20:51 (twenty-three years ago)

Don't forget John Lennon in this, he was the song's cowriter (and maybe Carlos Alomar too?)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 20:55 (twenty-three years ago)

I can't remember the name of the Brown track without a dig through the collection at home, but once you listen to both, it will be blatantly obvious to you that SOMEONE ripped off someone else in this case. It's just too close. I seem to remember reading that th this one had been "solved," but now I can't remember the details. Why don't we turn this over to someone who probably knows something about it. Matos, maybe?

― Lee G (Lee G), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 20:56 (twenty-three years ago)

It's the other way around IIRC: JB stole the "Fame" (1975) riff for "Body Heat" (1976).

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 20:58 (twenty-three years ago)

nate to thread

― Jody Beth Rosen (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 21:00 (twenty-three years ago)

amateurist is right i think. the JB songs great tho'.

― gaz (gaz), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 21:32 (twenty-three years ago)

i just listened to both songs back to back and i don't hear the similarity AT ALL.

― JasonD (JasonD), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 21:45 (twenty-three years ago)

therifftherifftherifftheriff
gimmegimmegimmegimmeyourlovinandriff

― gaz (gaz), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 21:47 (twenty-three years ago)

The Brown track isn't "Body Heat," it's "Hot (I Need to be Loved, Loved, Loved)." "Fame" peaked on the US pop charts in August '75, the Brown track peaked on the r&b charts in December '75.

― scott woods (s woods), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 21:52 (twenty-three years ago)

ah, thas' right.

― gaz (gaz), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 21:57 (twenty-three years ago)

oh yeah, duh. thanks scott.

― amateurist (amateurist), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 22:21 (twenty-three years ago)

James was no stranger to "borrowing" songs. Compare his "Shout & Shimmy" to the Isleys' "Shout." Or the J.B.'s' "Thank You For Letting Me Be Myself & You Be Yours" to oh you can figure it out.

― Douglas (Douglas), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 22:43 (twenty-three years ago)

ha! i don't know that JBs cut. is it good?

― gaz (gaz), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 22:50 (twenty-three years ago)

JB's track is really great!

If I remember correctly from DB's biog 'Strange Fascination' (time I stopped reading trashy rock biogs), DB considered suing JB but didn't bother as JB's track wasn't a big enough hit.

Weird, you've thought DB ripped off JB, but it was the other way around. A real hapax legomena in the history of funk, that one.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 4 June 2003 23:18 (twenty-three years ago)

"A real hapax legomena in the history of funk, that one."

how long have you been waiting to say that?

― gallantseagull, Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:16 (twenty-three years ago)

Since 1983, my feathered friend. Since 1983.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:26 (twenty-three years ago)

And where is the pedant who will point out I incorrectly used the plural 'legomena', rather than the singular 'legomenon'? It's been almost 20 minutes now and still no Sterling Clover.

― colin s barrow (colin s barrow), Thursday, 5 June 2003 04:32 (twenty-three years ago)

http://www.ladymin.de/pics/lego/aerosmith.jpg

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 5 June 2003 10:06 (twenty-three years ago)

Lennon got the song-writing credit just for the high-pitched "Fame" bit, after they'd already pretty much laid down the music. And Alomar apparently came up with the guitar riff, which Bowie then expanded on. Or something like that.

It may have got him his first US number one, but the Lennon collaboration also resulted in the fucking awful version of 'Across the Universe'.

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 5 June 2003 10:49 (twenty-three years ago)

that version of 'Across the universe' is indeed erm...not very good. but godammit I sing along with pathos every single time I hear it...

― willem (willem), Thursday, 5 June 2003 10:59 (twenty-three years ago)

I have a video of JB on his FUTURE SHOCK funkorama TV show lip synching to his "Fame" rip.

― Jay Vee (Manon_70), Friday, 6 June 2003 20:02 (twenty-three years ago)

Maybe JB figured he invented funk = everyone owed him some riffs back.

― Jordan (Jordan), Friday, 6 June 2003 20:10 (twenty-three years ago)

one year passes...

i think jb just assumed bowie wz some kinda foppish one-hit wonder, here today gone tomorrow

ALSO: it's a JB song but does that actually mean JB "came up" w.the riff?

(ie maybe one of his MUSICIANS tht bowie wd be vanished adn gone come december and why waste a great idea?)

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:19 (twenty-one years ago)

(or maybe like every good pop musician ever, he was just borrowing, appropriating, stealing, bending, interpolating, using and abusing what came before. sometimes to good effect, sometimes not.)

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:25 (twenty-one years ago)

wel yes, though if you hear the two back to back you do think BLIMEY HANG ON!! not much "bending" goin on here!

― mark s (mark s), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)

is this on any albums, or only comps. was it only a single?

― The JaXoN 5 (JasonD), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

from an interview with carlos alomar - Q: What exactly is the story on James Brown's "Hot (I Need to be Loved)"? His discography says it was released in the later part of 1975 the same year as Young Americans. However, "Fame" doesn't sound like the type of song two white guys from England would come up with. I know it was your riff from the cover of "Footstompin."

CA: It was my riff. That was all me getting all funky and stuff. David wasn't into that. First of all, because I'm a New York musician, I knew the musicians that played on the session ... They said he (James Brown) actually played the damn record in front of them. It was surprising to see David Bowie's reaction because he had great respect for James Brown as did I. So Bowie said `Let's see what kind of activity it gets. If it charts and does real good, then we'll sue him.' Come to find out, that record didn't do anything. Still, it was real flattering for David to have had James Brown steal from him.

― j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:33 (twenty-one years ago)

wel yes, though if you hear the two back to back you do think BLIMEY HANG ON!! not much "bending" goin on here!

i'm not saying this was necessarily a case of it being done to good effect! not sure if i've ever heard the JB track, so i just don't know. i'm just suggesting it was probably nothing more than JB, or one of the JB's, saying "hey, that song sounds cool, we should do something like it." and maybe it ended up sounding a bit too much like it. but that's one of the risks even the greatest stealers, appropriaters and benders face. ain't nothing wrong in trying.

― fact checking cuz (fcc), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

holy shit mr. blount, i referred to the exact same interview in a thread on the "dutch ilxor board" de subjectivisten! :-)

― willem (willem), Thursday, 10 March 2005 19:49 (twenty-one years ago)

is this on any albums, or only comps. was it only a single?

It's on the last disc of the Star Time Box Set.

― brandon larson, Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"Footstompin'"? I thought it was "Wish I Could Shimmy Like My Sister Kate."

― Ken L (Ken L), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I think maybe it was Dave Matthews--the arranger from Cincinnati, not the other one--who maybe took the lick from Alomar, not JB? I'll have to dig around to find out, maybe. Anyway, if JB ripped it off--well, "payback" in reverse and advance for all the times he'd been/was to be/ripped off. They're both great songs.

― edd s hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 10 March 2005 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

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