Kiley Dean -- Pop Goes Meta

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Kiley Dean is Timbaland's new protege, and her first single, "Make Me a Song," is disgustingly meta. Kiley asks Timba for a song like "Rock the Boat," and the tune's chorus is actually "Rock the Boat." And her voice bites Aaliyah so hard. And the song is awful. But it's a song within a song. And at the end Timba plays her the song he's made her (which is actually good). It's fucking terrible. So terrible.

Watch the video here.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:28 (twenty-two years ago)

The song is so not awful.

Andy K (Andy K), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:33 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh wait -- I'm thinking of another song on the album. Nevermind.

Andy K (Andy K), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

I really like this track. It's pretty funny how at the end the song he's made is 'Baby Can I Hold You'. I've had about half of the album for a while and there is some great stuff on it-Kiley and Tim tap into a lot of old soul records but with a more modernist Timbaland twist than say, Badu. The best track is 'Keep It Moving', which is so good I wish I'd made it.

Barima (Barima), Friday, 18 July 2003 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Nobody wanted to know three months ago...

JoB (JoB), Friday, 18 July 2003 17:51 (twenty-two years ago)

timbaland's gone so meta he forgot he didn't write or produce "rock the boat"

jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 18 July 2003 19:00 (twenty-two years ago)

Yancey -- I don't understand the title of this thread at all. I mean, do you ever think there was a time that pop music *didn't* comment on other pop music? Or am I missing something? (I never liked that band Pop Will Eat Itself, either, though, so maybe I'm just prejudiced.)

chuck, Friday, 18 July 2003 20:12 (twenty-two years ago)

No, I don't think that. It's just that the meta-commentary seems the whole point of the song. It's just odd how gauche it is!

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 18 July 2003 20:15 (twenty-two years ago)

it's not just gauche, it's bizarre. it's like the ronnettes asking smokey robinson to write them a song like "be my baby."

jess (dubplatestyle), Friday, 18 July 2003 20:18 (twenty-two years ago)

ha! i totally missed the implication of what you said above until now jess. yr right! that totally makes it 100% stranger.

Yanc3y (ystrickler), Friday, 18 July 2003 20:22 (twenty-two years ago)

seven months pass...
Oh my god Barima you were so right about "Keep It Moving"! Brilliant!!!

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 19 February 2004 06:14 (twenty-two years ago)

three weeks pass...
so "simple girl" (the album), is it any good?

m., Monday, 15 March 2004 13:37 (twenty-two years ago)

i missed this totally, must hear

stevem (blueski), Monday, 15 March 2004 13:45 (twenty-two years ago)

"Make Me a Song" is f'ing GRATE

Matos W.K. (M Matos), Monday, 15 March 2004 13:46 (twenty-two years ago)

i think 'make me a song' is probably more interesting to write about than it is to listen to. 'keep it moving' is lovely, though.

m., Monday, 15 March 2004 13:53 (twenty-two years ago)

www.kileyfan.com has audio files of the album in the Media section. The non-release of the album so far is nothing more than A FUCKING CRIME. It's the only record I look forward to now.

I cooled on the song over time, but it is still alright. I've begun thinking about it (as of this morning) as another Tim riposte to the biters etc. It's a stock Tim track plus the 'meta' element (good point about the writing/listening ratio, m). Kiley has a better voice than Aaliyah I reckon. And of course, almost a year on, 'Keep It Moving' is still one of the best things I've heard in years (if I could cry etc).

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:19 (twenty-two years ago)

there's is nothing remotely close to "better than aaliyah" about kiley fucking dean

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Not now, Jess.

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

touche

strongo hulkington (dubplatestyle), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:32 (twenty-two years ago)

Although I have no reason to give props to Aaliyah's voice, I'll amend the comment to restrict it to 'Keep It Moving' because that's the song I'm most stuck on. And I can't think of an Aaliyah performance I'd take over it. nb: I only compare the two as part of the context KD is sometimes viewed in, I really don't give a shit.

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

she resembles jessica simpson - of whom i watched the newlyweds marathon mtv (result i feel frigging nauseous today). that said, meta pop? it *has* to be classique.

jesus nathalie (nathalie), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:35 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha, Jesus of Nathalie.

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Kiley Dean, any relation to Charlton goalie Dean Kiely?

pete s, Monday, 15 March 2004 14:51 (twenty-two years ago)

does anyone know what the sample is at the end of the song when it changes up? the same bassline that's in JayZ's "It's Hot (Some Like It Hot)". or is it just one of Tim's reusable live instrument samples?

JaXoN (JasonD), Monday, 15 March 2004 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

(barima, don't know if yr aware, but the album seems to have leaked on slsk)(i didn't know that it hadn't seen official release yet)

m., Monday, 15 March 2004 18:18 (twenty-two years ago)

M, I got 60% of it on WinMX last May/June. But where I am right now, I can't hope to get near Soulseek (like that's changed).

BTW, kileyfan.com appears to be 'under construction' (and no, I ain't the webmaster).

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 19:46 (twenty-two years ago)

that's just a Missy reference

JaXoN (JasonD), Monday, 15 March 2004 19:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Who's a clever little boy? Why, you are!

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

eat it buddy

JaXoN (JasonD), Monday, 15 March 2004 20:06 (twenty-two years ago)

Eat it like a vulture.

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 20:19 (twenty-two years ago)

"Keep It Moving" is classique - it has the same overblown epic feel as Ginuwine's "Final Warning", and the end section is just insanely good. Plus as Barima suggested to me it totally justifies my position that Timbaland could afford to move his focus away from tight grooves for a while; most of the song is practically beatless but it still sounds amazing.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Nice one, Tim (for one thing, it's cool having another ILMer to share the love, I don't feel like adding to the enthusiasm on Kiley's site's message board). I'd never before thought of it as 'overblown', though I'm not so hot at perceiving such reaches in songs. 'Epic', yes. It would have been a great finish to 2002/start to 2003 if this had gotten out before Xtina's 'Beautiful', and it's the most blatant name-maker on Simple Girl - 'Cry Me A River' but doubly better and more of a progressive Timba track.

It's weird how I can go on and on about the song (time to consider a blog) and yet look at the Timbaland: POXX thread and think "Y'know, I don't even think I can think of 10". Well, I can think of 10, but 20 is asking me to delve into the stuff I've skipped and know not much about like Ginuwine, the Magoo stuff, the Aaliyah stuff/non-singles that wasn't on I Care 4 U...

BTW, I'm happy that this thread has come on a bit.

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Check out "Final Warning"!!!

I mean "overblown" in a good sense obv. I don't think i ever use it with the proper pejorative connotation actually. The song isn't really overblown except insofar as it tries to do so much. Kiley's actually quite restrained, which works beautifully. I've always found R&B songs about possible love affairs that aren't gonna happen particularly affecting - actually *that's* what it reminds me of: Destiny's Child's "Perfect Man"! Which is obv. one of the best things ever as well so it's keeping very good company.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Tim, you're just leaving me with less to say about the song now. I'm kidding, you've given me some new perspective. I'm still trying to work out how a song about declaring the stability of a relationship to the scheming ho trying to get the dude back can be almost mournful-sounding in parts (specifically, the end, when that melody comes in. What instrument's it played on - knowing Timba, a keyboard? What kind of sound is it?)

If I could describe the song in 2 words, I'd pick "works beautifully".

Barima (Barima), Monday, 15 March 2004 21:55 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh wow I totally misinterpreted the song! I thought she was saying "keep it moving" to herself and the guy she liked! That'll teach me to listen closer to the words - I guess I was just distacted by the music.

But you're right, that makes the the air of melancholy even more unusual.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 16 March 2004 00:10 (twenty-two years ago)

four months pass...
Has anyone heard 'By Your Side' yet? There's a 40-second loop version on the p2p circuit and it sounds vaguely promising.

R.I.M.A. (Barima), Wednesday, 21 July 2004 16:38 (twenty-one years ago)

two months pass...
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEVVVVIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIVVVVVVVVVVVVEEEEEEE!

OK, 'By Your Side' is good. However, all who love her should approach www.kileyfan.com and it's audio page with trepidation as...she's resung the vocals on 'Keep It Movin'' (seems a xluster of tracks were played on BBC 1Xtra) and approximately 35% of its magic is now lost :-(.

There's a new cut named 'Escape' there too and that is also good. But why, why, why has she resung her best song wjen it was already so bloody perfect?

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Saturday, 25 September 2004 16:20 (twenty-one years ago)

Tim? Dee? Mind Taker? Bueller?

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Sunday, 26 September 2004 09:49 (twenty-one years ago)

Ihateyouall?

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Monday, 27 September 2004 17:24 (twenty-one years ago)

i still haven't heard any of it!

teh pow! (blueski), Monday, 27 September 2004 18:04 (twenty-one years ago)

Why on earth would she re-record it?!

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 27 September 2004 18:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I just burnt the whole reocrd, plus bonus traxx 'Gun Line' with Petey Pablo and 'Country Til I Die' (mixtape versions). I can do you one for when I see you, Steve. Dee?

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Monday, 27 September 2004 19:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I finally found it online. What are those bonus traxx from though?

djdee2005 (djdee2005), Monday, 27 September 2004 19:56 (twenty-one years ago)

Bubba Sparxx presents The Mudd Katz compilation/mixtape.

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Monday, 27 September 2004 20:17 (twenty-one years ago)

Barms, I'm hoping to use a computer that will allow me to access this stuff this afternoon. Of course I have the utmost respect for your Kiley updates.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Monday, 27 September 2004 21:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Barima why did you never tell me about "Stay Away From My Boyfriend"?

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 8 October 2004 03:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I did mention it a few times, I just got stuck on 'Keep It Movin''.

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Friday, 8 October 2004 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Ah it's probably my fault - but anyway it's great! It reminds me a bit of that "Fame"-bootlegging remix of Latrelle's "Dirty Girl" - glammy bluesy R&B-rock!

Although yeah, not as good as the peerless "Keep It Moving".

Barima, go read the Teedra Moses thread and download the songs I recommend at the bottom!

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 8 October 2004 16:00 (twenty-one years ago)

Really, it was the most suprising track - Tim producing barbershop girl group doo wop pop. Absolutely fantastic. You can imagine Kiley in a cocktail dress and a beehive.

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Friday, 8 October 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

One of the things I love about "Stay Away From My Boyfriend" is that Timbaland's presence is so slight and yet unmistakable - that crashing snare has just gotta be him. And yet at the same time even that giveaway is hardly a typical signature sound for him; it's just that it reeks of his approach at its best. It's the sort of lateral thinking I like to see from Timbaland. I think Geir might approve of it.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 8 October 2004 16:11 (twenty-one years ago)

No!

Which is also a pretty decent Kiley track.

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Friday, 8 October 2004 16:14 (twenty-one years ago)

When you complete the album, you discover that the first ten is complete and utter gold. Even 'Just Like That' is supposed to be standard Tim and it blossoms into sci fi synths. For a recent artist, it's refreshing and wonderful how much she drives her own album, slipping on and off personas and using her voice at the right times and places and in exactly the most perfect ways. The only letdown is the outro (the outro!), 'I Know', when she turns into Beyonce.

B.A.R.M.S. (Barima), Friday, 8 October 2004 16:17 (twenty-one years ago)

four months pass...
OH MY GOD, x 2.

1: Barima, thankyou so so so so much for the Kiley CD! After literally a YEAR of waiting to hear this I have finally done so and my god it is utterly and wholly brilliant.

2: I went to her website for the first time and MY GOD SHE'S WHITE. This is totally not how I imagined her!

what is the story behind the non-release of the album?

The Lex (The Lex), Sunday, 27 February 2005 23:58 (twenty-one years ago)

why has nobody commented on the fela sample in "no"? that song is amazing. one of timba's best r'n'b instrumentals.

firstworldman (firstworldman), Monday, 28 February 2005 00:15 (twenty-one years ago)

It's tra-la-la perfection, innit. I'm not up on Fela, so I couldn't have said anything enlightening.

Alex, I get so much glee from telling people she's white. Secret Weapon or wot? This is apparently why they didn't release the album - racial politics at their finest. Nevermind, it's still the only album I plan on shagging to.

Deerninja B4rim4, Plus-Tech Whizz Kid (Barima), Monday, 28 February 2005 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

i doubt the reason they didn't release this was her skin color.

But yeah, wtf where is this album at.

djdee (djdee2005), Monday, 28 February 2005 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

Skin colour plus sound of voice added to lack of reception for 'Make Me A Song'.

Deerninja B4rim4, Plus-Tech Whizz Kid (Barima), Monday, 28 February 2005 15:01 (twenty-one years ago)

eh I just thought "make me a song" was a pretty bad record, particularly compared to "Keep it Movin" or "Kiss Me like that" or "cross the line"

djdee (djdee2005), Monday, 28 February 2005 15:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Nevermind, it's still the only album I plan on shagging to.

no way! Kiley's far too distracting, and also really melancholy.

The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 28 February 2005 21:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Kiley Dean has left Interscope (without a release).

JoB (JoB), Monday, 7 March 2005 22:50 (twenty-one years ago)

oh no! I assume Simple Girl will never see the light of day now - if Kiley does get a new contract she'll probably concentrate on new stuff. This is a massive pity.

The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 10:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Tweet is coming out I think March 22nd, her single isn't doing very well.
But keep voting anyway. I think Tim has one song on there.

djdee (djdee2005), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:25 (twenty-one years ago)

what a downer.

djdee (djdee2005), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:26 (twenty-one years ago)

2: I went to her website for the first time and MY GOD SHE'S WHITE. This is totally not how I imagined her!

"Zero Cool? Shit, I thought he was black!"

Massive shame about shenanigans at Interscope, but likely better for her in the long run. I hope she stays away, stays away, stays away from Jive.

The Hacker, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:37 (twenty-one years ago)

missed this thread the first time, but as i wa convinced before clicking that "Kiley Dean -- Pop Goes Meta" was going to be about christgau's love for rilo kiley

Nick Sylvester, Tuesday, 8 March 2005 15:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Just slightly off the topic - but did you read on the above website Missy's next album is double album?

Jedmond (Jedmond), Tuesday, 8 March 2005 18:46 (twenty-one years ago)

OK: on "America", is that Bubba Sparxxx rapping towards the end? Because if so, then that song is the most perfect inverse of "Nowhere" imaginable.

The Lex (The Lex), Saturday, 12 March 2005 21:55 (twenty-one years ago)

That's Timbo!

Deerninja B4rim4, Plus-Tech Whizz Kid (Barima), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:03 (twenty-one years ago)

damn! it's still the perfect inverse of "Nowhere" anyway: 'nowhere's the place to go' ---> 'I know what it's like to be nowhere'.

The Lex (The Lex), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

also "War Song" makes me a little weepy.

as does the way that this album will never be released.

The Lex (The Lex), Saturday, 12 March 2005 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Alex says: also: um, i may be remembering this wrong, but i am SURE that timbo did not actually produce rock the boat
Going Zero (?????·??) says: he did not
Alex says: !!!!
Alex says: wtf
Alex says: make me a song, WTF WTF
Going Zero (?????·??) says: he just missed her a little too much that day
Alex says: HE CAN'T MAKE YOU THAT SONG, KILEY
Alex says: that's totally nuts, actually
Alex says: not only is it meta
Alex says: but it's... FICTIONAL META
Alex says: except meta by definition is NOT FICTIONAL
Alex says: i think timbo and kiley have broken philosophy there
Going Zero (?????·??) says: hahaha
Going Zero (?????·??) says: put this on the thread!

The Lex (The Lex), Monday, 14 March 2005 21:35 (twenty-one years ago)

two months pass...
OMG New songs!!

Negativa, True Believer (You know you love it when I'm dressed in drag) (Barima), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

'Escape', which her fans have been over since last year, 'Just A Little', 'Be Alone', 'Let You Know' and 'So Caught Up' (which samples/versions Soft Cell's 'Tainted Love'!). All or most produced by Tim and each are like the second half of the first album - straighahead Tim grooves with nothing like the relative experimentation of 'Stay Away', 'Keep It Movin'' or 'Kiss Me Like That'. 'Let You Know' is a BBC radio rip with the promise that a "big, big album is coming from her this year."

While I'm glad my wish for Tim to develop his work with Kiley over his work with Missy is coming true, he's taking too much of a back seat to her voice and he of all people should realise that Simple Girl worked best when they were both putting the personal touches in. Her singing is amazing though and it will probably still be better than Afrodisiac (no diss).

Negativa, True Believer (You know you love it when I'm dressed in drag) (Barima), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

"Kiley Dean aka Blue Eyes - 'Lookin' For Love'"

I will plotz if her next CD cover features her dressed as Frank Sinatra.

Negativa, True Believer (You know you love it when I'm dressed in drag) (Barima), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Wonder if any songs from "Simple Girl" will be brought over.

Jedmond (Jedmond), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:04 (twenty-one years ago)

EXCITEMENT.

I did hear a rumour that she'd changed her stage name to Blue Eyes which would have been maybe the second worst idea in the history of pop after failing to release Simple Girl.

The Lex (The Lex), Tuesday, 31 May 2005 19:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Just been round her site and kileyfan.com. 'Lookin' For Love' is apparently doing the rounds in the US as a "Blue Eyes" single and the new album is titled Changes.

Negativa, True Believer (You know you love it when I'm dressed in drag) (Barima), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:31 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh yeah, and 'So Caught Up' is available via a certain thread.

Jed, if any songs are brought over, I pray to God it's not the resung 'Keep It Movin''.

Negativa, True Believer (You know you love it when I'm dressed in drag) (Barima), Wednesday, 1 June 2005 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

"Kiss Me Like That" is the bestest song in the world ever

Paul (scifisoul), Thursday, 2 June 2005 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Belated nod to Tim F - 'Final Warning' is awesome. I love the vocals and that classic Tim bass guitar.

Negativa, True Believer (You know you love it when I'm dressed in drag) (Barima), Thursday, 2 June 2005 07:33 (twenty-one years ago)

four weeks pass...
I just heard 'Feels So Good' via 1Xtra, who seem to have had the entirety of Changes, if that's still its name, for perhaps the whole year thus far. It's aimed so squarely at the hearts of the Kiley/Teedra appreciation club that I'm pretty sure Timba didn't produce this evocative slice of sleepy time dream pop ("If I'm inside a dream/Don't wake me up 'cause it feels so good"). And once again, it hangs a lot on her voice, since it's a completely weightless loop, and lacks Timba's touch of musical or vocal builds. It's also very close to the likes of Janet-era ballads.

I think this album is pitched between Simple Girl and Complex Simplicity, and is likely to be better than the latter and not the former. But Kiley is on top, people.

Negativa, True Believer (Sheryl Crow in a Britney costume) (Barima), Thursday, 30 June 2005 08:48 (twenty years ago)

six months pass...
???

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Monday, 2 January 2006 05:27 (twenty years ago)

i wonder what amateurist was thinking.

hold tight the private caller (mwah), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 16:38 (twenty years ago)

this?

http://img476.imageshack.us/img476/4068/kileybanner16nn.png

hold tight the private caller (mwah), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 16:38 (twenty years ago)

maybe not.

hold tight the private caller (mwah), Tuesday, 3 January 2006 16:39 (twenty years ago)

???

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Sunday, 8 January 2006 05:17 (twenty years ago)

"disgustingly meta"

isn't that a contradiction?

Nathalie (stevie nixed), Sunday, 8 January 2006 05:21 (twenty years ago)

Nah, a redundency.

deej.. (deej..), Monday, 9 January 2006 02:55 (twenty years ago)

two months pass...
so, yeah, I have a 14-track collection of new songs which claims to be the unreleased kiley dean album! I’m not sure how much I believe it because it’s very much a mixed bag, in terms of style as well as quality.

‘sometimes’ – big disney powerballad about overcoming one’s trials and tribulations etc which I want to love a bit more than I do
‘let you know’ – attempt to recreate midtempo destiny’s child circa the writing’s on the wall, a bit boring
‘gotta clue’ – first proper banger and first properly ace song! melody which goes way up and then way down, kiley on superb form as she berates the boy who gets her hot for being so damn obtuse he doesn’t realise she’s feening for him
‘who will I run to’ – very possibly my favourite, a completely classic schmaltzy weepy ballad of epic proportions
‘so caught up’ – poor kiley, rihanna trumped her in the ‘tainted love’-sampling stakes a little, not that I think this is something r&b girls should be competing for in the first place. still awkward and a bit crap
‘never wanna let you go’ – I can’t remember how this goes
‘never felt so good’ – more of a mood than a song, quite subtle production; will probably sound better in the summer
‘lookin’ for love’ – awesome! kiley brings her best xtina-holler over campy kanye-esque soul samples and insane treated synth guitar; like the mid-point between ‘dirrty’ and ‘tilt ya head back’
‘just a little’ – this is ok, production sounds a little dated and kiley doesn’t do enough with her voice to make it stand out
‘goodbye’ – I’m not sure if this is based on an actual classical sample or just a looped string phrase but it’s ace – a smooth, sleek kiss-off
‘be alone’ – my other favourite, electro arpeggios and astonishing wordless vocals’; probably the most simple girl-esque song here
‘by your side’ – still an amazing song but I prefer the version with utada, this solo version lacks something
‘are you feeling me’ – I can’t remember this either
‘escape’ – ace ballad to close!

The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 31 March 2006 09:53 (twenty years ago)

it's much more of a pop album than an r&b one, for what that's worth.

The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 31 March 2006 09:54 (twenty years ago)

seven years pass...

Did anyone else know she apparently ended up one of Madonna's backup singers?

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 11 July 2013 23:06 (twelve years ago)

original nuttah cassie fan club itt

i still remember how 'kiss me like that' goes

r|t|c, Friday, 12 July 2013 09:34 (twelve years ago)


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