Avant-Garde Goes Mainstream in the 1980s?

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So, I've had this lingering notion that the 1980s were a particularly fruitful time for certain kinds of "artsy" (if not wholly avant-garde) musicians. And by "fruitful" I guess I'm talking about a measure of mainstream success. I'm thinking about the fact that people like Laurie Anderson and Philip Glass appeared on Saturday Night Live (which seems completely unthinkable today). I'm also thinking about forays into non-Western music from people like Brian Eno, David Byrne, and Paul Simon -- although this is a bit different, I suppose, since these were musicians already working out of a mainstream rock tradition.

But what I'm wondering is: What in the culture of the 1980s allowed for this semi-popularity of art music? Was it a matter of Baby Boomers growing older and finding themselves no longer interested in straight-up ROCK rebellion but still looking for something cutting-edge, "far out" -- and (bonus!) with an adult, intellectual sheen?

Or am I getting it all wrong and overstating the case? (Also: was this as true in the UK as I'm imagining it was in the USA?)

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I don't think it was necessarily the "avant garde" that broke in the 80s, but "eclecticism". It was fashionable to appear well-rounded, cultured, with diverse tastes. This is something that was probably born in the 60s, and when the boomers grew up, it became the norm. I really don't think this has gone away either - what was "eclectic" in the 80s now seems mostly just PC.

dleone (dleone), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:36 (twenty-two years ago)

yes, yet another reason to not use the term "avant-garde."

It was not much of a stretch from most late 1970s/early 1980s rock to late 1970s/early 1980s new composition, esp. in NYC. The overlap just in terms of players and ideas and styles is overwhelming, and since that's what was going on, it shouldn't be surprising that SNL (which probably didn't have the booking power and/or cache circa '75-82 that it does now) featured a lot of these people. To Lorne Michaels, Laurie Anderson would probably seem a pretty safe alternative to Lydia Lunch.

Also you're overstating their popularity. How much did this stuff actually sell?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Age must be a factor ... none of the performers jaymc named were spring chickens during the 80's. So, they appealed to a wide age demographic which helped increase their popularity.

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:41 (twenty-two years ago)

This is a very American take on the question (although you seem to be bringing up American artists, to begin with), but, while I agree with dleone for the most part, I also think a lot of it goes back to cross-fertilization of various scenes in New York (made possible in part by the availability of relatively cheap housing). To some extent the whole downtown New York scene in the 80s was probably the fruit of what was happening there in the 60s. I guess.

Rockist Scientist, Monday, 7 June 2004 14:42 (twenty-two years ago)

xpost to Barry: 25 years ago Laurie Anderson was in her early 30s. David Byrne might've been around the same age, maybe younger, I don't know.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Also, minimalism, for example, was simply a lot more accessible than much of what had existed as the avant-garde.

Rockist Scientist, Monday, 7 June 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah esp. the "minimalism" of Reich and Glass - makes La Monte Young seem like Schoenberg in comparison.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:44 (twenty-two years ago)

cross-fertilization of various scenes in New York (made possible in part by the availability of relatively cheap housing)

Excellent observation.

frankE (frankE), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:45 (twenty-two years ago)

I made it first! Geez...

It was not much of a stretch from most late 1970s/early 1980s rock to late 1970s/early 1980s new composition, esp. in NYC. The overlap just in terms of players and ideas and styles is overwhelming,...

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Yes, but even late 20's/early 30's is considered old for a pop performer in 2004. It's hard to imagine a trend with performers over 30 breaking through today, but not so much in 1980.
(xpost to stence)

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:47 (twenty-two years ago)

Barry that's true about the age of popstars now but I don't think it could be said of back then (even though there were certainly your Bay City Rollers and whatnot).

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:50 (twenty-two years ago)

in laurie anderson's case, there's also the fact that she went out and made a pop single.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:52 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm waiting for David Brooks to find this thread and make one of his hilarious sociological commentaries.

("People in Blue States be listenin' to world-beat!")

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not saying that there were no young popstars then, I'm saying that it was far more likely that an older star could break through, bigtime, to a young audience.
I just can't imagine a 35-year old performer having a first hit album and being booked on SNL today.

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:54 (twenty-two years ago)

yeah, I agree with that point, Barry. Even the music for 35+ year-old people is made by young un's today (Norah Jones comes to mind).

Also by the time Glass appeared on SNL in 1986, he was definitely not new news.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

in laurie anderson's case, there's also the fact that she went out and made a pop single.

I don't exactly remember all of the details about how "O Superman" became a #2 hit in the UK -- but it's safe to say that Anderson didn't "go out and make a pop single" in the same way that, say, Jessica Simpson does. If memory serves, it was more like it unexpectedly found its way to radio. (Because, really, if she wanted to make something along the lines of a "radio-hit pop single," she probably could have, and it wouldn't have sounded like "O Superman.")

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 14:56 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil, I should have noted the x-post. (However, I did throw in a little bit of an attempt at a materialist explanation.)

Rockist Scientist, Monday, 7 June 2004 14:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Who are these "35-year-olds with a first hit album" that got booked on SNL in the 80s, though? Although Talking Heads assuredly became increasingly famous as the 80s went on, they weren't exactly unheard of when their debut album came out in 1977. And at that time, Byrne was 25.

Norah Jones of 15 years ago = Tracy Chapman

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

Laurie Anderson's 'O Superman' - the Song

Laurie Anderson has appeared on two major UK hit singles. She was one of the Various Artists who performed on the charity single 'Perfect Day' that topped the UK chart in 1997, delivering one line of the song written and first performed by her long-term personal partner Lou Reed. However, as a solo act she has had but one UK hit single. It reached number two in 1981. It was called 'O Superman', and it was surely one of the strangest records ever to climb the UK chart.

Like many a one-hit wonder, Anderson is not primarily a musical performer. But where other unlikely hits have come from comedians, actors or sportsmen, Anderson is a performance artist, specialising in multi-media shows that make use of film, spoken word, dance and innovative technology.

She originally recorded 'O Superman' for a New York-based indie label, 110 Records. It was as much a poem as a song, half-sung and half-spoken, with minimal conventional musical accompaniment - just some electronic tones and pulses, and splashes of sax and flute. Anderson's voice was distorted through a vocoder, making it androgynous and eerie. The single lasted for over eight minutes.

By all conventional criteria, 'O Superman' was totally uncommercial and radio-unfriendly - but it was weirdly gripping and moving. Its use of electronics seemed to evoke the difficulty of communicating emotionally through technology, and there was some startling wordplay: 'So hold me Mom/ In your long arms/ Your petrochemical arms/ Your military arms...'

There was also humour in 'O Superman'. Anderson's distorted voice calmly observed:

Cause when love is gone, there's always justice/ And when justice is gone, there's always force/ And when force is gone, there's always Mom - Hi Mom!
However, the overall effect of the single was distinctly unsettling.

DJ John Peel began playing it on his BBC Radio One show, and got a huge response. Record shops all over the country received requests for it. Finally, WEA Records signed Anderson and released the single in Britain. It shot straight into the Top 20, climbed to number two, but then began descending the chart.

'O Superman' was, in fact, a small fragment of an epic four-and-a-half hour work entitled United States, all about communication and the way people use language. Anderson's debut album, Big Science (1982) consisted of excerpts from United States. A five-album boxed set containing a live recording of the whole work, simply entitled United States - Live, was released in 1984. On both albums, the song's title is listed as 'O Superman (For Massenet)' - probably a reference to Jules Massenet (1842-1912), an influential opera composer.

Although she has never had another solo hit single, Anderson has kept returning to the music world over the years and enjoyed some success in the album charts. She reached the US Billboard Hot 100 albums in 1984 with Mister Heartbreak, on which she worked with Peter Gabriel. More importantly, perhaps, the success of 'O Superman' won Anderson a much wider audience for her performance art, which continues to be appreciated to this day.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

(x-post)
i wasn't trying to compare o superman to oops i did it again or even, say, blue monday. and it wasn't NEARLY as big a hit either, certainly not in the US. in fact, it wasn't even remotely a hit in the US. but it was marketed to dance clubs and college radio and indie record stores and all those kinds of places, which, if you're a classical composer, is a conscious decision to at least try to cross over.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:01 (twenty-two years ago)

jaymc - Talking Heads '77 only got as high as 97 on the top 100.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:02 (twenty-two years ago)

Bizarrely I was just telling young Ned about Captain Beefheart's appearances on Letterman in '82 and '83.

As far as Europe's concerned, I think the original punk scene was responsible for making a lot of people more receptive and responsive to a lot of different, more "avant" sounds (cf.: Alternative TV, Cabaret Voltaire, The Fall, Magazine, PiL, Swell Maps, Wire domestically and imported sounds from Devo, Pere Ubu, Suicide etc.); so when punk was subsequently reduced to a more narrow definition, people started to look elsewhere for that sort of imagination innovativeness.

Stewart Osborne (Stewart Osborne), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Beefheart was originally considered to be producer for Laurie's first LP, btw.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:06 (twenty-two years ago)

I guess my point, hstencil, was that it's not like they had a sudden breakthrough album in their mid-30s. Or did they? I dunno.

1978 More Songs About Buildings And Food Pop Albums No. 29
1978 Talking Heads: 77 Pop Albums No. 97
1979 Fear Of Music Pop Albums No. 21
1980 Remain In Light Pop Albums No. 19
1982 The Name Of This Band Is Talking Heads Pop Albums No. 31
1983 Speaking In Tongues The Billboard 200 No. 15
1983 Speaking In Tongues Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums No. 58
1983 Speaking In Tongues Pop Albums No. 15
1983 Speaking In Tongues Black Albums No. 55
1984 Speaking In Tongues The Billboard 200 No. 48
1984 Stop Making Sense The Billboard 200 No. 41
1985 Stop Making Sense The Billboard 200 No. 53
1985 Little Creatures The Billboard 200 No. 20
1987 "True Stories" The Billboard 200 No. 28
1988 Naked The Billboard 200 No. 19

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:10 (twenty-two years ago)

they were popular before Speaking In Tongues but that was really their breakout-into-mainstream record, thanks to "Burning Down the House."

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:17 (twenty-two years ago)

The chart wasn't actually called "Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums" way back in 1983, was it??

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:18 (twenty-two years ago)

did sharky's day hit the charts anywhere? they used to play that on the radio a lot.

scott seward (scott seward), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:19 (twenty-two years ago)

The chart wasn't actually called "Top R&B/Hip-Hop Albums" way back in 1983, was it??

probably just "Top R&B"

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:22 (twenty-two years ago)

It must've been an interesting period for R&B when Talking Heads and Hall & Oates were all over the charts.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:27 (twenty-two years ago)

why do you say that? It's not as if Talking Heads didn't have long-time funk session men playing with them, or if Hall & Oates weren't originally known more as an R&B band than a rock band...

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:28 (twenty-two years ago)

...or that Talking Heads cover of Al Green, even...

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:30 (twenty-two years ago)

hall & oates were never a rock band! or at least not a rock band in the bruce springsteen or ramones sense. they were a soul/R&B band start to finish.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:31 (twenty-two years ago)

that's what I'm sayin'.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:32 (twenty-two years ago)

say you, say me

fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

Oh, I know. I'm not saying they weren't R&B. Ah, never mind. I guess there's always been white people on the R&B charts: look now, there's Eamon! And that one chick in the Black Eyed Peas!

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:40 (twenty-two years ago)

um, jaymc, ever hear of Elvis?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:42 (twenty-two years ago)

Elvis Presley's Top 20 R&B Billboard Singles
By: EIN - January 7, 2004
Source: EPE

Song Title Peak Year
Heartbreak Hotel/ 5 1956
I Want You, I Need You, I Love You 10 1956
Don't Be Cruel/Hound Dog 1 1956
Love Me Tender/ 4 1956
Too Much 7 1957
All Shook Up 1 1957
(Let Me Be Your) Teddy Bear/ 1 1957
Jailhouse Rock/ 1 1957
Don't/I Beg of You 4 1957
Wear My Ring Around Your Neck 7 1958
Hard Headed Woman/Don't Ask Me Why 2 1958
One Night/ 10 1958
(Now and Then There's) A Fool Such As I/ 16 1959
A Big Hunk O' Love 10 1959
My Wish Came True 15 1959
Stuck On You/ 6 1960
It's Now or Never 7 1960
Are You Lonesome Tonight?/ 3 1960
I Feel So Bad 15 1961
She's Not you 13 1962
Return to Sender 5 1962
One Broken Heart for Sale 21 1963
(You're the) Devil in Disguise 9 1963
Boss Nova Baby 20 1963

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:44 (twenty-two years ago)

Tell me more!

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:51 (twenty-two years ago)

don't act all offended now.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 15:56 (twenty-two years ago)

I'm not. ;-)

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:03 (twenty-two years ago)

But I guess I did assume that post-Elvis, the R&B chart has been mostly black. Then again, I do remember Chuck Eddy citing a handful of other white acts on the R&B charts in the 70s and 80s, so this is all probably a fiction.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:04 (twenty-two years ago)

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:07 (twenty-two years ago)

1989 "Didn't I (Blow Your Mind)" Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles & Tracks No. 34
1989 "I'll Be Loving You (Forever)" Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles & Tracks No. 12
1989 "You Got It (The Right Stuff)" Hot R&B/Hip-Hop Singles & Tracks No. 28

I realize that Hall & Oates was a poor choice to cite as "strange" to be on the R&B charts. Because I would call them R&B, no question, and yet I still wouldn't call Talking Heads R&B. So whatevs.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:18 (twenty-two years ago)

what would you call Bernie Worrell?

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

God among men?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

hahaha good one Ned.

hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:22 (twenty-two years ago)

first song on first talking heads album = "uh-oh, love comes to town" = R&B masterpiece.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, I know the band has R&B influences, but ... ah jeez, I don't want to turn this into an argument about genre, because as I said in some thread last week, I like the idea of associating certain bands with genres they aren't typically associated with (cf. that Tortoise-is-hip-hop article). I guess I just wouldn't have thought that they'd have crossed over among radio demographics. Everything I said after that was ill-conceived.

jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 7 June 2004 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

There's the (in)famous case of Phil Collins' "Sussudio" hitting (or was it topping?) three charts : I think it was pop, R&B, and adult contemporary?
Sorry about not having the facts very clear.

Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Monday, 7 June 2004 19:17 (twenty-two years ago)


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