"Black Dice are, sadly, the logical extent of Sonic Youth's half ironic interest in hardcore punk." (2001)

Message Bookmarked

Bookmark Removed

Taken from the poncey newsletter of terminally boring hardcore band J Church: http://www.j-church.com/newsletter/09-4.html

Obviously a totally incorrect statement. Firstly, by 2001, Black Dice had moved onto noise terrorism from their earlier hardcore leanings. Secondly, Sonic Youth clearly *loved* hardcore a lot. Let us now list Sonic Youth's flirtations with hardcore.

1) Silver Rocket

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:05 (twenty-two years ago)

2) Nic Fit

― Broheems (diamond), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

Hardcore, sonic youth???

White Cross is the only one that even comes close. Oh or that NIC FIT song off, Dirty.

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

sorry broheems

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:10 (twenty-two years ago)

harcore, j church???

― lauren (laurenp), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

I looked up "Punkist" in the dictionary and there was a link to that article.

3)Kissability

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

Husker Du was considered hardcore

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:11 (twenty-two years ago)

LAUREN, HAHA YOU KNOW THAT J CHRUCH ISN'T A HARDCORE BAND? YOU LIKE J CHURCH?????

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:12 (twenty-two years ago)

Husker Du WERE hardcore.

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:14 (twenty-two years ago)

ddb, do you just mean Everything Falls Apart?

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Lance Hahn needs to lay off the candy. The sugar has eaten his brain.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:16 (twenty-two years ago)

Wow. I had totally forgotten about J Church.

― deanomgwtf!!!p%3Fmsgid%3D4581997 (deangulberry), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

Do you think he actually like Free Jazz?

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:17 (twenty-two years ago)

No, Jon....I mean, NEW DAY RISING, METAL CIRCUS, LAND SPEED RECORD (ultimate in speed), ZEN ARCADE (parts), CANDY APPLE GREY (2 songs at least), WAREHOUSE (couple of tunes).

All of it.

Husker Du were a hardcore band IMHO.

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:19 (twenty-two years ago)

Well, even if Sonic Youth wasn't a hardcore band, don't you think they picked up a lot from hardcore?

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:20 (twenty-two years ago)

ddb is right in regards to the early Husker Du.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Sonic Youth needs to stop ripping off Cringer.

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:23 (twenty-two years ago)

Well i read a thing were Thurston was saying he saw a dude with Regan Youth painted on the back of his jacket, and he thought it was a JAB at sonic youth.

I dont think sonic youth had too much in common with Hard Core at their early stages.

Semi-Related, AGONY SHORTHAND has a quick thing with Clint Connely (Mission Of Burma) asking him about early 80's Boston hardcore, clint admits to liking some of the stuff but having very little in common with those bands at the time.

I think Mission of Burma is more HARDCORE than Sonic Youth.

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:24 (twenty-two years ago)

one doesn't have to play hardcore to have an affinity for it.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

article here

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

i'm not saying that

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:26 (twenty-two years ago)

I know, just throwing it out there.

A friend told me about a Cro-Mags bootleg last night that I just gotta hear for the stupid between-song banter alone. Apparently it was from a show the day after a Gay Pride parade, so it sounds pretty hilarious.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:27 (twenty-two years ago)

(OT: I hate Daydream Nation less now. "Hey Joni" is rocking my world.)

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:30 (twenty-two years ago)

Were the Cro-Mag Hare Krishnas? What's on this boot?

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:31 (twenty-two years ago)

I've always thought sonic youth were an art band who drew some influence from hardcore that got stronger over the years. As their music got more accessible there was a period were they took like, an academic and idealized/nostalgic interest in hardcore...see the video for Teenage Riot, and by Dirty they were specifically, I don't want to say "dumbing down" their sound, but playing with grunge, hardcore, classic rock etc,

― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:32 (twenty-two years ago)

the Cro-Mags were like MEATHEAD/RETARD hardcore.

and by that I mean they were great (when I listened to them in 8th grade)

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:36 (twenty-two years ago)

Age of Quarrel's pretty good. But they're dumb as a bag of bricks.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:37 (twenty-two years ago)

Anyway, Dan Selzer OTM.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:38 (twenty-two years ago)

WHAT DID THEY (OR AUDIENCE) SAY ABOUT GAYZ?

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:40 (twenty-two years ago)

some not very nice things, Jon.

Anybody remember Thurston's dumb home-made "DGC HARDCORE" shirt in press photos around the time Goo came out?

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:41 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.friendster.com/user.jsp?id=8010716&t=a

control+f DGC

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:42 (twenty-two years ago)

they covered crime in 1987.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:43 (twenty-two years ago)

they covered the stooges in 1983.

― ddb (ddb), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

http://www.j-church.com/songs.html

so terrible

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:46 (twenty-two years ago)

I blame J-Church for one of the worst weeks of my life, including my tires getting slashed.

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 16:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Steve Shelley will be playing an instore tonight at the Burritoville in Washington Heights.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:03 (twenty-two years ago)

doubtful, he lives in Hoboken.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:04 (twenty-two years ago)

burritoville.

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

no, square mile city, home of baseball and Frank Sinatra.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:05 (twenty-two years ago)

I'd be hard pressed to call anything Sonic Youth has done ironic, or even half ironic. Even during the DGC years, I think that they honestly thought they were on the vanguard of major artistic change in the music industry. Whether they were right or wrong about it doesn't really matter, but they sure weren't cynical about it.

J Church is/was Green Day-era West Coast punk-pop. Only twee kids thought they were hardcore.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:09 (twenty-two years ago)

hardcore = emily's sassy lime

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:10 (twenty-two years ago)

no, hardcore = Henry's Dress

― jack cole (jackcole), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:15 (twenty-two years ago)

OMG you guys please stop I'm having a seriously bad college-radio flashback here

― Nick Mirov (nick), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:17 (twenty-two years ago)

It's been a while since I've heard an album that's leapt forth from my stereo speakers with such determination to restore my faith in indie rock. Within the first twenty seconds of "Is This Thing On?", the leadoff track from Nothing Feels Good, I cast my vote for the Promise Ring as "Most Likely to Vanish in a Puff of Buddha-Like Perfection." With a sound like Superchunk on Red Bull, the Promise Ring play tight anthemic power-pop with the devoted, passionate energy of true believers.

- Nick Mirov, December 1997.

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:21 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick Mirov, don't you think "Bubblegum" was ironic?

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Ciocone Youth to thread!

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:23 (twenty-two years ago)

"Two Cool Rock Chicks Listening to Neu"

WHO ARE DEEZ LADIES

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:24 (twenty-two years ago)

Jon, seriously now, everyone here has known for at least five years that I'm a shitty writer. I was a shitty writer in 1998 when I wrote that review, and I'm a shitty writer now. And it's a good thing I've never gotten paid for anything I've ever written for Pitchfork, because lord knows it would have been a big fucking waste of money. So thanks for reminding everyone-- again-- that I'm a shitty writer. So just keep posting that because it really proves whatever point you're trying to make.

And no, I don't think "Bubblegum" was ironic.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:32 (twenty-two years ago)

you're a shitty reader now too, since that Promise Ring review is dated 1997.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:33 (twenty-two years ago)

"Nic Fit" is an old Untouchables (Wash DC) song, it was on Flex Your Head and later 20 Years of Dischord.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:35 (twenty-two years ago)

hardcore = emily's sassy lime

Heh, Donut Bitch and I knew Emily herself sorta well through KUCI. Cool person.

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:36 (twenty-two years ago)

I think I know when I wrote that review, hstencil. I started writing for Pitchfork in January of 1998. All the Pitchfork reviews before about 2001 weren't originally dated, and when Ryan went back and tried to put dates on all the old reviews, he must have messed up a bit.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:38 (twenty-two years ago)

dude I'm just shitty at caring about Pitchfork.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:39 (twenty-two years ago)

For the record, I care about Nick Mirov.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

I Care Because OTT Do

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:41 (twenty-two years ago)

seriously, how hot is dominique leone? does she listen to NEU!???

― gygax! (gygax!), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:43 (twenty-two years ago)

Heh, Donut Bitch and I knew Emily herself sorta well through KUCI. Cool person.

Double heh, I knew Wendy Yao (ESL's drummer) when she worked at KZSU.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 17:46 (twenty-two years ago)

Haha you like Promise Ring.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 19:50 (twenty-two years ago)

Avant-garde and free jazz was inherently connected to black power. Just ask Bill Dixon or anyone from the Art Ensemble of Chicago or Archie Shepp. What do Black Dice and the bands like them have to do with black power? Could they ever do something as ideologically radical?

― deanomgwtf!!!p%3Fmsgid%3D4581997 (deangulberry), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 19:56 (twenty-two years ago)

Black Dice wants America to drink their beer with a straw.

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:04 (twenty-two years ago)

"hurry up with that veggie dog."

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:05 (twenty-two years ago)

Black Dice fired their non-white guy.

― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:07 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Dominique Leone was a dude.
Anyway wot about this new SY video anthology coming out today?

― 57 7th (calstars), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:08 (twenty-two years ago)

I thought Dominique Leone was a dude.

that's the joke!

and I say: i like early black dice, i like recent black dice, but that boring noise shit in the middle (circa 2001) deserves all the shit that gets heaped on it. that said, j church blows and that guy is clearly a douchebag. i remember being at a show they played (with jon?? maybe it was phil) and them getting shit thrown at them. good times.

i like sonic youth, and their interest in hardcore was hardly ironic (though i don't know if i'd term it fervent.)

jon, ripping on nick/pitchfork is getting old!

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:21 (twenty-two years ago)

I WILL BEAT THE PROMISE RING JOKE INTO THE GROUND LIKE HISHAM PLAYING A DRUM

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 21:32 (twenty-two years ago)

If you drink your beer with a straw you get more drunk

― Raw Patrick (Raw Patrick), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 21:41 (twenty-two years ago)

RUMOR PATROL

Discography:

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 22:55 (twenty-two years ago)

what you say?

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 22:59 (twenty-two years ago)

is Cold Hands boring noise shit?

― Daniel DiMAGGIO (Daniel DiMAGGIO), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 02:20 (twenty-two years ago)

i don't like cold hands or the other album on TMU.

― Ian c=====8 (orion), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 02:49 (twenty-two years ago)

"I'd be hard pressed to call anything Sonic Youth has done ironic, or even half ironic."

t. moore is constantly half-ironic. where have you been the past decade?

― TV, Wednesday, 9 June 2004 04:22 (twenty-two years ago)

Cold Hands is kinda crappy, there's about one good noisy crazy song and 3 meh tracks.

Number 3, the other TMU release is way better. Imagine a really awesome hardcore band having a really fucked up practice where they just kinda shuffle around noodling, occasionally locking into one of their songs but mostly just improvising and letting the guitars scream.

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 04:38 (twenty-two years ago)

"Anybody remember Thurston's dumb home-made "DGC HARDCORE" shirt in press photos around the time Goo came out?"

Yes. don't rem. it as 'dumb', tho.

― Mike Dix., Wednesday, 9 June 2004 05:24 (twenty-two years ago)

"i don't like cold hands or
the other album on TMU. "

Are you typing about Boss hog?

If so, yes. shityy album.

― md., Wednesday, 9 June 2004 05:29 (twenty-two years ago)

t. moore is constantly half-ironic. where have you been the past decade?

Go read the chapter on Sonic Youth in Michael Azerrad's Our Band Could Be Your Life. Moore et al. are nothing if not sincere in their love of trash culture. Absolutely nothing ironic about it. Corny, maybe, but not ironic.

― Nick Mirov (nick), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 05:58 (twenty-two years ago)

black dice, are, sadly.

― Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 09:59 (twenty-two years ago)

Nick, why does embrace of a certain aesthetic preclude irony? To draw a dichotomy between enjoyment and irony seems theoretically naive. An artist can fully embrace another aesthetic as a listener/reader/viewer while deploying and unraveling shards of that aesthetic in an "ironic" fashion in their own work. Isn't this what Godard does when he uses tropes of rugged Hollywood masculinity to build Belmondo's character in "Breathless," only to use his narrative to unpack those tropes, for example? I think it's an enormous category mistake to say that Sonic Youth's hardcore "practice" was every bit as earnest as, say, Econochrist.

― rasheed wallace (rasheed wallace), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 11:04 (twenty-two years ago)

Econchrist mention on ILX, 5 points.

― HAMBURGER NEURON GROUP (ex machina), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 11:31 (twenty-two years ago)

t. moore is constantly half-ironic.

I don't think the band, nor Moore, go half-in on anything. When they're being ironic/decadent, it's painfully heart-on-sleeve and very (intentionally) childish (see Ciccone, the throwaways on Goo). Among their catalog are some of the most direct, surface-level critiques of the Just Gimme Indie Rock era: "Schizophrenia", "Expressway to Yr Skull", "Brave Men Run", "100%", "Teenage Riot"...I could go on for quite a while here.

― Chris Ott (Chris Ott), Wednesday, 9 June 2004 11:55 (twenty-two years ago)

three years pass...

"hurry up with that veggie dog."
-- hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 8 June 2004 20:05 (3 years ago) Link

^ lol just got this joke

― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Thursday, 8 May 2008 23:14 (eighteen years ago)

You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.