I don't understand "Kool Thing" by Sonic Youth

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We were watching the Sonic Youth video collection last night and watching the video for Kool Thing, and it reminded me of the confusion I've always had about the Kim Gordon/Chuck D "dialogue" in the middle. Here are the lyrics, I've italized Chuck D's parts for clarification:

yeah, tell'em about it,
hit'em where it hurts
hey, Kool Thing, come here, sit down beside me
there's something I go to ask you.
I just wanna know, what are you gonna do for me?
I mean, are you gonna liberate us girls
from male white corporate oppression?
tell it like it is!
huh?
yeah!
don't be shy
word up!
fear of a female planet?
fear of a female planet?
fear, baby!
I just want to know that we can still be friends

(I actually can't remember which of them says "fear of a female planet.")

Anyways, there's this obvious disconnect between the two vocal lines here. Honestly, it sounds like Chuck D just came in and recorded some vocals without having the music or the lyrics or anything, nothing he says has much connection to the song. It's actually worse than KRS-One in "Radio Song." But what's odd about it is that Kim Gordon seems to be directly addressing him, asking him whether his revolution includes women, and by having Chuck D's responses be so remote, it's like he's just ignoring her, which makes him look pretty bad. Then she's like "Well, I hope we can still be friends," which seems to be acknowledging that she's being left out. So basically, the whole thing isn't particularly flattering for Chuck D. Am I totally overreading this, or does it seem odd to anyone else?

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:24 (twenty-one years ago)

it makes a lot more sense if you've read the LL Cool J article Kim Gordon wrote for Spin many years ago.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

To me, Kim isn't addressing Chuck, it's more like he's rooting her on.

― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:28 (twenty-one years ago)

also I think it's Kim that goes "don't be shy," and they both say "fear of a female planet."

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:30 (twenty-one years ago)

Chuck D is distracted because he is trying to figure out how a plum vending machine works.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:32 (twenty-one years ago)

So what you're saying is that it's not a dialogue at all, but Kim Gordon addressing someone else and Chuck D just adding, uh, emphasis? That makes sense I guess. Chuck D's part still seems pretty pointless though.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

RAP METAL SUXOR

― ddb (ddb), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:33 (twenty-one years ago)

the song's really about LL Cool J, and I think Chuck just got thrown in there as afterthought since they were in the same studio (another weird coincidence: the engineer on Daydream Nation also worked on It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back).

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:35 (twenty-one years ago)

why is LL COOL J still alive?

― ddb (ddb), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:37 (twenty-one years ago)

To me, Kim isn't addressing Chuck, it's more like he's rooting her.

― NickB (NickB), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Watching the DVD made me think that I should get "Goo." I only ever had a shitty tape of it and never really got past the first few songs, but it sounded pretty good last night.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

It's basically a crap song. Period.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:43 (twenty-one years ago)

It's one of the weaker songs on that album, I'll give you that.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:46 (twenty-one years ago)

I am fond of the B-side - a cover of Richard Hell's 'That's All I Know (Right Now)'.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:48 (twenty-one years ago)

it makes a lot more sense if you've read the LL Cool J article Kim Gordon wrote for Spin many years ago.

the song's really about LL Cool J

Can you give a synopsis of the article, which, I assume explains how it's about LL. I never read it.

― frankE (frankE), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:54 (twenty-one years ago)

it's basically just a sort of awkward interview in which Kim goes on and on about him, and he's sort of befuddled. Plus y'know the song's called "Kool Thing" (LL Cool J) and there's a line about "walking with a panther":

http://www.hiphopstore.ch/images/llcoolj_walkingwightapanther.jpg

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 14:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I vaguely recall reading that they asked LL Cool J to do a song with them but he refused, acting like he was some sorta "kool thing" that wouldn't lower himself to doing a rock track. So the track ended up as a big kiss off to LL. I could be wrong about this, though.

― Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:01 (twenty-one years ago)

Ironically, LL Cool J later went on to free all girls from male white corporate oppression.

― Alba (Alba), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:05 (twenty-one years ago)

by sexing them up with his love jamz.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:06 (twenty-one years ago)

This has always been one of my favorite Sonic Youth songs, not because of the song itself or the presence of Chuck D, but because of what it's about. It seems to me to be at once pointing out the utter futility of attempting to find real rebellion in pop music (that's why Kim's for-the-purposes-of-the-song sincere questions are met with nothing but cheesy hip-hop slogans from Chuck) and confessing that this is something pop listeners (Kim includes herself in this) can't help but do - that the rebel performance stance is so seductive that it overcomes all logic and you start to really believe that Chuck D, or LL Cool J, or whoever, is gonna change the world.

― pdf (Phil Freeman), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:11 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll buy that

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:27 (twenty-one years ago)

there's such irony in Sonic Youth telling us about the futility of seeking real rebellion

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Kim Gordon doesn't need to show up on PE track to sound spacey and lost.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

and full of shit.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:31 (twenty-one years ago)

that said, this is one of my favorite tracks on Goo. I like instrumental break right after the Chuck D interlude a lot.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:32 (twenty-one years ago)

i always skip ahead right before this part of the song (nowadays)

― kephm, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:33 (twenty-one years ago)

It's basically a crap song. Period.

I agree. It's just about the worst snc yth number I can think of, actually.

― Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:35 (twenty-one years ago)

"Youth Against Fascism" might possibly be worse.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:38 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyways, there's this obvious disconnect between the two vocal lines here.

in all seriousness, this is one thing i like about the song. it's as if kim gordon/sonic youth and hip-hop are operating in two different discourses. not contradictory ones exactly, but by and large exclusive. the obvious disconnect ("huh?") between gordon's vocal and chuck d's interjections dramatizes this. kim has this silly but endearing fantasy of LL Cool J using his gigantic talent and charisma to plug for women's liberation etc., and LL (chuck d as stand-in, i guess) is just muttering along on his on track.

also it's just playful and silly. one of my favorite songs from that era.

what r.e.m. were doing with "radio song," more or less, is trying to tie together their own jaundice toward commercial radio and the jaundice of krs-one. the result is kind of strident and boring.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

i think they know that, dude. in fact you could argue that "the irony of sonic youth telling us about the futility of seeking real rebellion" is their central motif. they're not dumb.

even in the early days they were all about a bewildered, frustrated but admiring take on the idealism of hardcore, hippy, and punk rock ideals and their own pop ambitions (articulated via the madonna tributes, ciccone youth, etc) it's in their band name, "teenage riot", etc, etc.

pdf = otm above

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:39 (twenty-one years ago)

i think there's also (subtextually?) some play with the whole black-male-as-fantasy-object-for-white-female thing: the song both dramatizes and mocks this attitude. there's a sense of gordon grappling with her own feelings about it.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:42 (twenty-one years ago)

i think they know that, dude.

are you responding to my post? if so, i'm not sure what you're referencing here. who are "they"? what is "that"? (i'm being serious: i don't understand.)

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:44 (twenty-one years ago)

wait, i think perhaps i do understand (but let me know if i don't).

i wasn't implying that the disconnect was unintentional. i think it was very intentional and clever/funny on the part of sonic youth.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

i missed this post the first time i read the thread. i think this complements what i said, but is more to the point. so, pdf otm.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm starting to wish I voted for "Radio Song" on the OMGWTFLOL poll.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 15:45 (twenty-one years ago)

oh, also "kool thing" is really catchy.

and it features in one of the best scenes of one of my favorite movies, simple men.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:46 (twenty-one years ago)

oh wait, fritz was responding to miccio!!

sorry abt the confusion. fritz do you agree w/my take on this song?

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:47 (twenty-one years ago)

did this end up on the 90s poll? cos it's one of my 4 or 5 favorite singles from that decade.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 15:48 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah, i was responding to miccio way up there, sorry for the confusion. and yeah i totally agree with your point

― Fritz Wollner (Fritz), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:02 (twenty-one years ago)

and even if they know they're lame its still ironic that a band critically hawked as groundbreaking heroes would do a song the impotence of such figures. having the comic book guy come out and say "worst episode ever" doesn't make shitty episodes of the simpsons any better.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:05 (twenty-one years ago)

"they're lame" in one sense. In another sense they're a great band I have a lot of albums of.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Their early DGC era of courting commercial success (mainly Goo and Dirty, maybe EJSTANS) contains some of their best songs ever and some of their worst shit.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:09 (twenty-one years ago)

also, to address a point made above, i don't think this song is a "kiss off" to LL at all. i think it's pretty obviously adoring of him, even if it (as i noted above) acknowledges how far apart sonic youth and LL are. (if only they knew about the sitcoms and bad film roles etc. in LL's future!!)

also gordon's talk-singing always had something to do with rap, so it's amusing and fun to be able to actually gauge the distance between her affect and a hip-hop affect here.

xpost

miccio: i don't understand your point. gordon's not pointing out the futility of politics or anything, she's just having fun with her own realization that hip-hop isn't quite the music of the revolution, or not her revolution anyway.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 16:10 (twenty-one years ago)

Their early DGC era of courting commercial success (mainly Goo and Dirty, maybe EJSTANS) contains some of their best songs ever and some of their worst shit.
-- n/a (nu...), September 10th, 2004.

i think all their albums are uneven, and that "goo" and "dirty" aren't really *that* different from the other albums in that respect. they shifted strategies a bit, but not with any incredibly noticeable difference in the distribution of quality.

anyway, "experimental jet set..." is my least favorite of their records (barring the very first which i don't really *get*) and that was made after they had more or less given up trying to chase the alternarock crown right?

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 16:12 (twenty-one years ago)

and I think its ironic that Kim Gordon is pointing out that other people's music is not the music of the revolution.

yeah experimental was actually their highest debut on the Billboard Charts actually, but was def. a turn away from the marketplace. Though they really didn't say sayonara to it until after their Lollapalooza headline.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, on this DVD of Geffen-era videos, there are eleven videos from Goo, I think three from Dirty, and only one from Experimental Jet Set, so I think that shows some commercial disinterest by that point.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I loved "Bull In The Heather" back in the day but Kim's voice has rendered the track unlistenable now. I can't help but wonder who the fuck she's trying to fool when I try to give it another try.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Well it's more of a "call and response" borrowed from spirituals and gospel music.

Sonic Youth made videos for every song on Goo, there is a VHS available.

― gygax! (gygax!), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:18 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah it's like how there's like 11 videos from REM's Out Of Time on their This Film Is On tape but only 4 or 5 were actually sent to MTV.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 16:19 (twenty-one years ago)

and I think its ironic that Kim Gordon is pointing out that other people's music is not the music of the revolution.

but why? does sonic youth profess to be a revolutionary force? hardly. a sort of political exhaustion/confusion is evident in their music from fairly early on. this song is in keeping with that.

Well it's more of a "call and response" borrowed from spirituals and gospel music.

i dunno, "call and response" is pretty pervasive as a technique, not limited to spirituals. i wouldn't say that spirituals are the most proximate context here. rap music is the proximate context, if we need one. there are "call and response" patterns all over rap music.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 16:26 (twenty-one years ago)

Skipping 21 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

yeah, that's a good question. maybe chuck has more of sense of humor than we think!

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:34 (twenty-one years ago)

She's using rap's lexicon against itself. SHE doesn't wanna. SHE doesn't think so.

DUDE! That's another LL reference! "Goin' Back to Cali!"

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:39 (twenty-one years ago)

if I remember correctly Chuck D didn't even listen to the whole track or anything before recording his vocals. I doubt he gave a shit, just wanted to court the rock market a little with a band that had some cred/similar politics.

hstencil i know! That's why I said she's using rap's lexicon!

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:40 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean I'm not saying your take is totally off, but I think that's more just about appropriating and utilizing catchphrases. It is, in a way, what you say, but also I think there's an aspect to what Kim Gordon does that lets lyrics just be lyrics, right?

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:41 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean she is as intellectual as any duderocker (probably MORESO really), but I'm not convinced that she put that in there as anything other than like "yet another LL catchphrase I can use." I guess the question is in the use, I dunno, nevermind.

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah it's just lyrics on one level (as I said, they treat pop as kitsch) but she also says LL looks pretty with a kitty, so I think there's a whole lot more wink and dismissal here than reverence.

oh she is WAY moreso intellectual. She used to write for Artforum!

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:44 (twenty-one years ago)

the pretty with a kitty thing is about Walking with a Panther though. Also, Artforum, Greil Marcus, yikes!

― hstencil (hstencil), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

hstencil: yeah totally, i think a lot of that song is just silly references/nonsequitirs.

one reason i called it "playful"...

"pretty w/a kitty" = another "walking with a panther" ref. = another way of saying "LL Cool J" is hot while also sort of poking gentle fun at his macho image!!

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

whoops, that should be

"LL Cool J is hot"

(note quote marks)

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:45 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm SAYING she's poking fun at Walking With A Panther. Why are you guys repeating what I'm saying? "Gentle fun"="irreverence"

the funny thing here is I think "Kool Thing" is one of the best songs on the album! Great riffs, catchy, Kim Gordon isn't overdoing it, etc. Macho rappers DESERVE a frustrated raspberry from feminist indie rock icons! I just think its worth noting that Kim Gordon's kinda living in a glass house cuz she's a pretty lame figure herself in a lot of ways.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:49 (twenty-one years ago)

miccio: i guess it boils down to, i think the song is more self-aware and self-mocking than you think it is. cool dat.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:50 (twenty-one years ago)

can you give a single reason for your take?

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:52 (twenty-one years ago)

like an example of "pretty obviously adoring"? when does she fawn about mr. macho? She calls him a "thing" in the title!

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:54 (twenty-one years ago)

she even dumps him for failing her at the end. she hopes they can still be friends.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:55 (twenty-one years ago)

well, it's a matter of interpretation. i've given my reasons above!

"thing" i think, as in "hot thang" = a term of endearment

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:55 (twenty-one years ago)

um, I see a lot of repeated interpretations without evidence.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:56 (twenty-one years ago)

I mean we agree on the "fantasy object" element. I'm just wondering what you base the idea of her respect for him on.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:57 (twenty-one years ago)

"evidence" -- well it's a matter of your impression of gordon's vocal, whether there's a wink in it, etc. you can't really prove that one way or another. if you don't hear it, you don't hear it. if i don't hear your interpretation, i don't hear it. life goes on, even after the thrill of living is gone.

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:58 (twenty-one years ago)

anyway i really think we should be concentrating on ddb's admonition and getting ourselves some lives

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 17:59 (twenty-one years ago)

haha I mean does Jani Lane respect his Cherry Pie? Or is he winking?

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 17:59 (twenty-one years ago)

i'm going to start at the snack bar downstairs

xpost

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 18:00 (twenty-one years ago)

ddb suggested you get a life, not me.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 18:01 (twenty-one years ago)

well i guess i won't be seeing you at the snack bar then

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 18:03 (twenty-one years ago)

nah, I gotta go to work soon (where I get to sit around on the internet! ha!)

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 10 September 2004 18:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I didn't get that song either.
Now I do, I guess.

By the way - Public Enemy are pretty overrated.

― Nowell, Friday, 10 September 2004 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

By the way - Public Enemy are pretty overrated.

You may think that way now, Nowell, but trust me -- in `88 there was simply NO ONE like them.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 18:51 (twenty-one years ago)

There still isn't anyone like them.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 18:53 (twenty-one years ago)

haha I mean does Jani Lane respect his Cherry Pie? Or is he winking?

Haha YOU'RE CLOSE (so is he)

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 10 September 2004 19:26 (twenty-one years ago)

This song would sound about 5,000 times better if it were an instrumental.

Matter of fact, every Sonic Youth song ever written would sound 5,000 times better if it were an instrumental.

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Friday, 10 September 2004 19:42 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread would be 100 per cent better without mr snrub

― mr natural, Friday, 10 September 2004 19:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Public Enemy just seemed too bombastic. Almost all their songs were about the same thing.

― Nowell, Friday, 10 September 2004 20:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, except that they weren't.

― Dan Perry '08 (Dan Perry), Friday, 10 September 2004 20:32 (twenty-one years ago)

No, I mean, ALL of their songs were political. There didn't last cuz they never talked about different things.

But then again, neither did a lot of other great bands...

― Nowell, Friday, 10 September 2004 20:34 (twenty-one years ago)

ALL of their songs were political.

No they weren't.

― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 10 September 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Okay, okay. MOST of 'em.

― Nowell, Friday, 10 September 2004 20:49 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.acbm.us/pointless-1.jpg

― amateur!!st, Friday, 10 September 2004 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

They didn't last? They're still putting out albums! They're still on Top 100 Album lists like all the time?

I will admit the "bombastic" part, but I don't really think that's a negative in their case.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 10 September 2004 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, no one's really paying attention to them anymore.

― Nowell, Friday, 10 September 2004 20:52 (twenty-one years ago)

She's got you there, Alex.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Friday, 10 September 2004 20:59 (twenty-one years ago)

i mean n/a, fuck

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Friday, 10 September 2004 21:00 (twenty-one years ago)

this thread would be 100 per cent better without mr snrub

100% * 0 = 0

― Mr. Snrub (Mr. Snrub), Friday, 10 September 2004 21:01 (twenty-one years ago)

I'll attempt to explain this to Nowell.

For me and a lot of other people my age and older, Public Enemy were like the Nirvana of rap - that is to say they got me seriously interested in rap in the first place.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Friday, 10 September 2004 21:05 (twenty-one years ago)

I get it.
I don't remember the first rap record I heard that I liked...I mean, I DO like rap. It was pretty much the only music I listened to for a while.

― Nowell, Friday, 10 September 2004 21:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Well they spoke to me like no other band back then - and I'm white! Christ-o-mighty, I just knew this PE backlash was coming! Fun, that it is ;-)

― herbalizer12 (herbalizer12), Saturday, 11 September 2004 17:40 (twenty-one years ago)

They were kinda like the Clash. Neither of 'em lasted long. But they all went on with their own projects.

― Nowell, Monday, 13 September 2004 18:39 (twenty-one years ago)

What?

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Monday, 13 September 2004 18:44 (twenty-one years ago)

Forget it! I'm just rambling.

― Nowell, Monday, 13 September 2004 18:47 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh, damn, I'm late with this, but the best part of Kim's interview with Chuck D is when he asks about all those albums by "The Negros" on the wall, and she explains that it's the Necros.

God, I hope I'm remembering that right. It's been so long.

― dlp9001, Monday, 13 September 2004 22:04 (twenty-one years ago)

oh yeah, forgot about that, heh.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 13 September 2004 22:10 (twenty-one years ago)

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