Why did I ever think I hated Pavement?

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OK, so, Pavement was serious coming-of-age band for me circa Slanted. Was still heavy into them entering college - Brighten the Corners was about to come out - me and my new buds at the radio station were psyched.

Over the years, something happened, though. I started to find them unbearable - the insufferable Harvard-marked pomposity of SM, the vaguely frat-y talentless of Spiral Stairs, etc. How could I have been so blind? This was the whitest music ever made. In all of its sloppiness, i still found it sterile and contrived.

Terror Twilight was the final nail in the coffin, natch, but by then, I was only buying their records out of curiosity anyway. I wrote a famous (well, among my circle of friends) published letter to Magnet viciosuly slandering the shit out of Malkmus because of his shockingly terrible first solo LP. Man, I HATED him.

It's been a few years since I've even listened to Pavement, even by accident. Tonight, for some reason, I got "Old To Begin" stuck in my head. Weird, because Brighten the Corners was easily my least favorite Pavement record - I mean, it IS where things started to go wrong.

I admit I did plan on buying the Crooked Rain reissue, more for heavy nostaligia than anything else - man I LOVED that record. But tonight I actually put Brighten the Corners on while cleaning up, and am weirdly enjoying it. Perhaps I've had enough reasonable distance, perhaps it's because the state of 'indie' is so piss poor right now, whatever the reason, I'm into it. Pardon the excruciating jargon, but there's something mildly 'refreshing' about it.

I still hate Malkmus - his lazy, phoned in solo career, and his cheerleader girlfriends - and would probably enjoying kicking his butt at Scrabble any time he likes. But I think I'm a Pavemnet fan again.

Until the imminent reunion, that is.

Anyone else ever need 'time apart' - I'm talking years - from a band they like?

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 22:59 (twenty-one years ago)

Yeah, I couldn't listen to or care about Guided By Voices for years. Same with Radiohead (although, I'm still not completely back in the fold for them).

― Johnny Fever (johnny fever), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:06 (twenty-one years ago)

"Harvard-marked"?

― morris pavilion (samjeff), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:07 (twenty-one years ago)

There's another ILXor who thinks she hates Pavement.
At some point I'll attempt to sway her opinion with the magic of the "Watery, Domestic" EP and other assorted gems she hasn't heard yet...

She kinda likes "Here", there's a start.

― AaronHz (AaronHz), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

1. Indie is coming back. Yes, it sucked HARD for a while, but I firmly believe it's headed in the right direction now. It's okay to sing well (TV on the Radio, I've heard has opened a lot of doors in that respect) and I personally love the new stoned hippie scene.
2. Malkmus is completely insufferable, but he has his moments.
3. There's a lot of bands I used to love that I'm not fond of any more that I may one day love again. See: The Replacements.

― David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:09 (twenty-one years ago)

im currently taking time away from the cure, robert just looks like a bloated raccoon to me these days, far from the romantic genuis he was in my youth.

im kinda over the stooges too, but that could change at any moment.

― Jackson, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:11 (twenty-one years ago)

"Indie is coming back."

I don't believe in comebacks anymore for musical styles and bands. Only 5-10 year cycles.

― Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

malkmus didn't go to harvard.

― Cripps Pink (Jody Beth Rosen), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:13 (twenty-one years ago)

I got Pig Lib a little while ago on the cheap and I was half-surprised that I really enjoyed it. I say half because JBR's review gave me an idea what to listen for. I even like some PSOI's stuff, even though Stairs is a craptastic lyricist. Both strike me as more assured now in their mellowness than Pavement was in their later years (aside from some hits). Maybe their independence allows the guys an easier sense of mission.

All Pavement albums have something to be said for them, though I've got the most love for Wowee and before.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

hi jody! I was hoping you'd see this thread (I started writing that before you posted) so I could thank you for helping me appreciate Pig Lib once I finally got it.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:16 (twenty-one years ago)

I like JBR's writing but a lot of that review I don't agree with.

Why did I ever think I hated Pavement?

Indie guilt?

― gygax! (gygax!), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:27 (twenty-one years ago)

but by then, I was only buying their records out of curiosity anyway.

thats how i felt/feel about Oasis, which shows my complete lack of indie cred

― Jackson, Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Pavement were OK, but they were one of those indie bands who got overhyped, got signed to Matador, and that changed everything. Frankly, I don't think they had enough going on to be a compelling album band.

Note that before they got signed, all they put out were EPs. They knew what they were doing. But you don't put out EPs when you get signed to Matador. They had to act like they were as good as IRS-era R.E.M. or SST-era Sonic Youth.

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:49 (twenty-one years ago)

i go in and out of love with pavement. a few months ago i listened to them obsessively for a week. now, eh.

― jess (dubplatestyle), Wednesday, 29 September 2004 23:52 (twenty-one years ago)

Anyone else ever need 'time apart' - I'm talking years - from a band they like?

I listened to Radiohead way too much a few years ago, got quite sick of them, and dropped them almost completely for a year or two. Picked them back up and now Kid A is very nearly my favorite record.

I didn't really get Pavement on the first spin or two, but Slanted & Enchanted grew on me and I've loved their 5 LPs ever since. Granted, I discovered them an embarassingly short time ago...

― sleep (sleep), Thursday, 30 September 2004 02:23 (twenty-one years ago)

i love pavement thru crooked rain, after that they bore the fuck out of me.

― latebloomer (latebloomer), Thursday, 30 September 2004 02:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Tim - yr logic is flawed in that Crooked Rain is a much better album than any by REM. It really is pretty great.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Thursday, 30 September 2004 05:02 (twenty-one years ago)

Well, maybe they got better by that point, but I had tuned out. I wouldn't mind hearing it. (Would have to remain skeptical that it's better than the first four R.E.M. albums.)

― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 30 September 2004 05:04 (twenty-one years ago)

weird that this thread happens now - i inexplicably put on "wowee zowee" last night after what... 3 years or so? i could still respond to some of the things on it in a way that didn't completely embarrass me, which is more than i can say for my built to spill records.

― m. (mitchlnw), Thursday, 30 September 2004 07:27 (twenty-one years ago)

Crooked Rain and Brighten The Corners are my favourite Pavement albums of the three or four I have. I've never really got Slanted for some reason.

I think sometimes a band/artist who you've invested a lot in - be it emotional, financial, whatever - does something disappointing on such a level that you almost can't consciously perceive it, and the disappointment seeps into everything they've ever done, not just the let down. The same can happen with people. I had two to three years of total antipathy towards my favourite band but they came back with a record I really like and hints of more really great stuff that I just know I'm gonna love in the future too. It's a strange reaction, perhaps, but not that unusual.

― Rasputin Kitten (Nick Southall), Thursday, 30 September 2004 07:28 (twenty-one years ago)

Here's hoping that a lot of the haters have similar epiphanies. They are the most unfairly maligned band of the 90s. Saddest part is that most of the people doing the slagging were huge fans back in the day.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Thursday, 30 September 2004 08:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Rasputin makes a good point - Malkmus' shitty solo material def. turned me off to Pavement until the S+E reduxe came out...unfortunately, we tend to take shit solo albums as a personal insult to the former band's reputation....Travis Morrison to thread

― Space Is the Place (Space Is the Place), Thursday, 30 September 2004 13:37 (twenty-one years ago)

Malkmus solo is unfairly maligned as well. Watch Pavement be the Buffalo Springfield of the 90s and the Jicks not Crazy Horse per se but you get the idea. Maybe we'll get a couple Berman Kannberg Albarn & Malkmus albums out of the deal too.

― tear me down, Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:01 (twenty-one years ago)

From an email I sent to someone earlier today:

"Yeah, SM interviews are always fun, especially when it’s clear that he doesn’t care about the interview and he’s just doing it cuz Nils asked and he gets ultra sarcastic/dismissive/Howard Deaniac. I sorta want to interview him but I’m afraid that in doing so my respect for his work might be tarnished by a well-placed jab on his part (I have this same fear about interviewing anybody I admire).

The weird thing about Kannberg is that, in my estimation, he wrote his best songs when he was with Pavement and his solo career totally pales by comparison. “Kennel,” “Date With Ikea,” “Stub Your Toe” et al – great, ripping stuff, just flying on a riff and a prayer and if PSOI followed that formula I’d be in hog heaven.

w/r/t SM’s fame, I want both weirdness and accessibility, the first to satisfy my belief that the man can make a truly, deep headscratcher of an album (the solo LPs are well on their way towards this, the third one I’m praying will be even more technically showoffish/prog foggisg whilst incorporating more screwball lyricism and than “Pig Lib” -- gtr solos everywhere!), the second to help the man sell as many records as he deserves. “Jennifer/Essdog” was the closest he’s come lately to wider audience/crit acceptance (s/t didn’t make as many lists as it should have, and a lot of people seemed to have forgotten P/L by year’s end). Ideally he’d pull a Sugar Ray – big radio friendly hit single that lured in people who’d never heard of him then when they bought the record they’d be all “oh my god, this is unlistenable like my older brother’s 70s Genesis records were unlistenable! This is nothing like the single!”"

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Pavement is one of those bands like the Pixies that used to mean a lot to me when I was in college, and I probably over-listened to them then, because nowadays I rarely feel the need to. I still have all the records, and I dig them out about once a year and listen to them.

― o. nate (onate), Thursday, 30 September 2004 14:14 (twenty-one years ago)

nate otm with 'over-listening'

"Jennie and the Ess Dog" DIRECTLY nicks the melody from that Elliot Smith song that goes "I'm in love / with the world / thru the eyes / of a girl..."

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Thursday, 30 September 2004 15:24 (twenty-one years ago)

nothing wrong with stealing it and doing it better!

― M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Thursday, 30 September 2004 15:53 (twenty-one years ago)

i really loved them in the '90s, esp. "crooked" and "wowee." summer of '95 "wowee" and the grifters were my soundtrack to all sortsa strange happenings. at one time i loved "brighten" but now, except for "no tan lines" and "starlings" i don't really care for it as much. the last one, though, i think is a great record, maybe not their most historically significant album or anything but quite rich. so actually i rank it just below "crooked" and "zowee." i like their early stuff too and in certain moods prefer it, these days--back then, i didn't. but i spent four or five years not listening to them and kinda liked the first malkmus solo record, it had its moments. now i still very much enjoy singles like "westy can drum" and "strings of nashville."

yeah, i do think "crooked" is better than any of the first few REM albums. i still like their very first EP and first album fine, but they always seemed a bit ropey, a bit folky, for my tastes. for all-american radio and rock and roll, great, obviously, i'd rather listen to them than tom petty.

i've taken breaks from touchstones of mine, like beefheart, big star, etc., and it's good to come back and appreciate them in different ways. i had been listening to the pere ubu box for a while and now i'm burnt on them, so i guess they're next. ditto the stooges, sun city girls, many others.

― eddie hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 30 September 2004 18:35 (twenty-one years ago)

The only Pavement album I have is 'Slanted and Encahnted', and I never listen to it...I got it, listened to it for about five minutes, and then I got bored.
I don't think I liked Liz Phair when I first heard her. (That album is 'Exile in Guyville'.) But it was more about her lyrics and her attitude. I like that record now.
The Stooges first album = overrated...or maybe I haven't listened to it enough.

― Nowell, Thursday, 30 September 2004 18:38 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.stephenmalkmus.com/dynamic.php?action=viewentry&id=19

Malk = not voting for Bush again!

― Raymond Cummings (Raymond Cummings), Thursday, 30 September 2004 19:53 (twenty-one years ago)

I think I hate Pavement, but I love Crooked Rain Crooked Rain.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

Mainly I have an irrational hatred of Malkmus.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:06 (twenty-one years ago)

nothing irrational about it - seems like a gigantic asshole

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:12 (twenty-one years ago)

The cover of that first solo album, where he's all tanned and smug - urgh.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:14 (twenty-one years ago)

http://www.toothpastefordinner.com/082502/stephen-malkmus.gif

― Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:55 (twenty-one years ago)

Ha ha.

― n/a (Nick A.), Thursday, 30 September 2004 20:57 (twenty-one years ago)

SM 4 JK

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:08 (twenty-one years ago)

Stephen Malkmus in hated for "trying to seem all clever/smug/self satisfied" non-shocka! Will they ever get over it, or has the Malk let the fans/indie kids/music world down in the most iredeemable of ways?! The adventure continues!

― John Cei Douglas (John Cei Douglas), Thursday, 30 September 2004 21:09 (twenty-one years ago)

"I think I hate Pavement, but I love Crooked Rain Crooked Rain."

Newsflash: You don't hate Pavement.

― J-rock (Julien Sandiford), Friday, 1 October 2004 03:54 (twenty-one years ago)

sadly, i found the solo album more enjoyable than Terror Twilight, but, that's obviously not saying much.

it IS a shame when talent is squandered so publicly.
sigh.

― eedd, Friday, 1 October 2004 14:18 (twenty-one years ago)

when is matthew perpetua going to come along and say he feels sorry for those who have failed to "keep up" with malkmus?

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:49 (twenty-one years ago)

(i haven't listened to pavement in a while, but i'd say i would enjoy it if did)

― weasel diesel (K1l14n), Friday, 1 October 2004 14:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I haven't read this thread, but I'll throw in my two cents: I bought the first album and really liked it. Never bought another one until my brother told me how good Terror Twilight was when it came out. I bought that and really liked it a lot. Then I bought all the other ones that I had missed and liked them all as well. Cool band. A truly entertaining band. Something I can't say about some of those other Matador-As-King-Of-The-Indies-Era bands. When was the last time someone listened to a Chavez or Run On or Barbara Manning record? I know, I know, you listened to all those people yesterday. But I mean, when was the last time a "normal" person listened to those people? Pavement records still sound cool. Is my point. I think. They were better than most of their ilk.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:11 (twenty-one years ago)

low blow with Chavez, Scott - Chavez ruled

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:16 (twenty-one years ago)

yeah if Chavez had made as many albums as pavement they'd get more attention. The local alt station played "The Guard Attacks" for a while, it was awesome.

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 15:18 (twenty-one years ago)

WTF, I go on about Chavez on like every ILM thread ever! I just posted about them on the Matador 15th anniversary thread earlier this week. I listen to them all the time. AND I AM NORMAL.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:18 (twenty-one years ago)

I listen to Chavez WAY more than I listen to Pavement.

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:19 (twenty-one years ago)

i don't think i've ever even heard Chavez. was that the one with live skull's drummer? okay, well, if chavez are good then just replace them with whatever matador band nobody remembers or listens to anymore.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:43 (twenty-one years ago)

that would be bailter space

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

it's kinda weird hearing this shit from a Bunnybrains nut, ya know

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:45 (twenty-one years ago)

Chavez's line-up is hysterical in hindsight: the drummer from Live Skull, the director of several Upright Citizens Brigade episodes, the third guitarist in Zwan and the co-writer of Joy Ride (Starring Paul Walker and Leelee Sobieski)

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:47 (twenty-one years ago)

I think you mean "awesome in hindsight."

― n/a (Nick A.), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

hysterical and awesome are kind of synonyms for me

― manthony m1cc1o (Anthony Miccio), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Sweeney is alright with me. Psyched to hear what him and Oldham come up with together.

― roger adultery (roger adultery), Friday, 1 October 2004 20:54 (twenty-one years ago)

i always liked pavements guitar stuff..squiggly and loud and crunchy in th right places..i dont get cultisms of any kind and secret codes and scratchy lyric sheets..i guess when tower recordings co-opted the runic handwritten titles and indeceipherableness it may have been time to listen to more classical music or something..th one time i saw pavement they were totally in rock mode and were great..malkmus is a stuffed shirt but at least he has smoked pot

― dan bunnybrain (dan bunnybrain), Friday, 1 October 2004 23:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I saw a used copy of the matador bunnybrains today at the ONLY RECORD STORE on the island. Hi Danny, I bought nearmint firstpress epic copies of hollies dear eloise/king midas in reverse and evolution today for 8 bux a pop.

― scott seward (scott seward), Friday, 1 October 2004 23:15 (twenty-one years ago)

I digitized to the iPod/iTunes Crooked Rain based on this thread. I had been putting off listening to CR CR because I love it too much and it's been years since I've really listened to it. I have been worried that it isn't as good as remembered. Truth is, "Gold Soundz" just came on the iTunes and it might be a perfect song. The rest of CR CR isn't too bad either. Pavement/SM just piss us off now and then. This is normal.

― mcd (mcd), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:14 (twenty-one years ago)

iz it cuz heez so smart und pretty? iz okay, someone haz too bee.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Happy Birthday, Scott!

― mcd (mcd), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:51 (twenty-one years ago)

Yayyyyyy! I'm finally drunk!

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:53 (twenty-one years ago)

FUCK YES. I'm gettin there and it's not even my birthday.

― mcd (mcd), Saturday, 2 October 2004 01:55 (twenty-one years ago)

It could be worse. I'm trying to sort out why I hated them until the past month or so.

np: Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain ("Stop Breathin", in fact, which was the first Pavement song that ever made me think "Maybe these guys aren't so useless after all".)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Saturday, 2 October 2004 02:14 (twenty-one years ago)

Hey Sundar do you know the song "Rattled By the Rush"? The riff kind of sounds like "Dancing Days" -- I'd bet you'd like it.

― Roy Williams Highlight (diamond), Saturday, 2 October 2004 03:00 (twenty-one years ago)

My love for Pavement grows evermore, even after they split. The recent purchasing of the Slow Century DVD just goes to prove exactly how stellar they could be and at the same time not really caring what the fuck was thought of them. Everything Malkmus has done since has been absolutely on par.

― dog latin (dog latin), Saturday, 2 October 2004 03:07 (twenty-one years ago)

barbara manning is great and played much in my house -- better than pavement.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:01 (twenty-one years ago)

you r¨ler111 jaV\CK ROCK POPM ,UTHERFUCKER.

― scott seward (scott seward), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:19 (twenty-one years ago)

barbara is one of the music things that bring me and my better half together.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:21 (twenty-one years ago)

hahaha -- YEAH! what Scott said JACK. What the fuck is wrong with you dude??

Scott is drunk --yay!!

I love them both dearly but Pavement wins it.

― Roy Williams Highlight (diamond), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:23 (twenty-one years ago)

you see world of pooh for me was one of the greatest bands ever . . .

or im cranky and tired after just getting home from work and not having enough energy to go see ghost -- fuck getting old sucks.

but even them barbara trumps pavement cuz strikes a chord that malkmus never will inside my hollow chest

something like that.

that said, scott and roy are ok in my book

time to pass out.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:35 (twenty-one years ago)

I know dude. I missed Ghost in Chicago because they played on Sunday and I just couldn't summon the energy. Fuck an old.

But don't get me wrong - I love the Babs big time. All stoners are ok in my book. Plus she just rocks in general.

― Roy Williams Highlight (diamond), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:38 (twenty-one years ago)

"Somewhere Soon" is one of my favorite cuts of the 90s. Fucking travesty that One Perfect Green Blanket didn't get nominated on that 90s poll dealy. But i guess we, the discerning citizens of ilm, all needed to get those Suede and Blur albums on there first.

― Roy Williams Highlight (diamond), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:41 (twenty-one years ago)

"goof on the roof" is beautiful

polls are almost always putrid, the mediocre drifting to the top to form a scum over the surface -- or maybe thats the Makers Mark talkin' -- ha!

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 2 October 2004 04:55 (twenty-one years ago)

but back to pavement. i've never hated pavement in the sense that i've always like everything up to and including wowee zowee. after that, forget about it, but ive probably already said that a million times before. if anything, pavement for me is just good earcandy.

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 2 October 2004 05:01 (twenty-one years ago)

that's cool jack -- I'm no Pavement zealot myself; I never heard a note of their music past Wowee! not one single note. But I still love them for that early stuff. It was a heady time, those early 90s. Perfect Sound Forever -- minds were blown. "mellow jazz docent" - HELLO!

But yeah - Babs. God bless her. I got high with her one time. A memory I will always cherish. And damn if she didn't have great choice in cover material. "Flashback Caruso"??? that song from the Cale/Riley thing?? Robert Scott?? Paul McCartney?? FUCKING "SF SORROW IS BORN"?? God bless you, Barbara

― Roy Williams Highlight (diamond), Saturday, 2 October 2004 05:15 (twenty-one years ago)

back to gygax!'s mystical, mythical '92. also the highpoint for sebadoh, gaffney still in the band.

one of my favorite covers, Holly Golightly doing "Box Elder" on a single.

one of my favorite covers, Barbara Manning doing the richard thompson song "end of the rainbow" on 1212

― jack cole (jackcole), Saturday, 2 October 2004 05:36 (twenty-one years ago)

"Everything Malkmus has done since has been absolutely on par"

more umbrage.
less agree-ance.

i was late to the bandwagon. it took seeing them to make me want to hear the albums. then, it hit hard.

but, then after seeing them in '99x2, i was amazed by how much of ass SM seemed. he and billy had more in common than i ever thought...

― eedd, Saturday, 2 October 2004 13:52 (twenty-one years ago)

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