is there such a thing as 'hip hop songwriting'?

(led zeppelin, aerosmith, etc.)

if there's a song, then someone (or collaborations of individuals) WROTE it....unless I guess it's totally free improv or something.

oh, i see. now i get the question, i think. i'm not sure any kind of pop songwriting can be easily placed into genres. that's more of an arrangement and production thing. you could take a metallica song and re-do as a hip-hop song -- so does that make the "song" a rock song or a hip-hop song or what? any any given hip-hop song can be reimagined as rock or country or whatever if you try hard enough.

though, on the other hand, presumably most songwriters have something particular in mind when they write, so i don't think it would be out of line to suggest that steve harris is more or less a hard-rock or metal songwriter while timbaland is more or less a hip-hop or pop songwriter. but any of their songs could easily be flipped and reversed.

In hip-hop, choruses & refrains are usually marked by dropping a new sound/layer/element into the already existing structure, whereas in rock/pop song structure, choruses & refrains are usually marked by a chord change or key transposition and/or rhythmic.

id also add though that due to the new sounds being dropped/inserted in, sometimes a new chord or rhythmic change takes place too. actually i dont know if these things can be stated so precisely or generally.

I find that in hip-hop, dn'b, electronic music, etc. the dynamic arc of the track tends to be a more subtle or at least more flexible than in pop music (where it's pretty clear what the function of the verse, bridge, chorus, etc. are).

quick quiz: is "walk this way" a rock song or a hip-hop song?

sorry i misundestood the question upthread.

not sure about the theory that hip hop songs structure is more subtle, maybe by that you mean there are less changes overall, which i could go along with.

writing rap is a difft story. freestyling vs writing, vs "writing" in yr head (made famous by jay-z) vs laying strong hooks down like petey pablo and working from there

this is the crux of your views on music geir, and i'm pretty sure that's a faulty statement.....house of cards, brah

1. To make up the constituent parts of; constitute or form: an exhibit composed of French paintings; the many ethnic groups that compose our nation. See Usage Note at comprise.
2. To make or create by putting together parts or elements.
3. To create or produce (a literary or musical piece).
4. To make (oneself) calm or tranquil: Compose yourself and deal with the problems logically.
5. To settle or adjust; reconcile: They managed to compose their differences.
6. To arrange aesthetically or artistically.
7. Printing. To arrange or set (type or matter to be printed).

True good pop songs are usually written by the artist himself (or herself, but usually it tends to be a he if we are speaking of a singer/songwriter)

Geir, why are you arguing against the dictionary? You're flat-out wrong and all of the foot-stomping in the world can't change that.

Good songs are supposed to be art.

BACK TO THE TOPIC AT HAND THOUGH, ANYONE WHO SAYS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS HIP HOP SONGWRITING IS SOMEONE WHO PROBABLY HAS NO RESPECT FOR HIP HOP AND STILL THINKS WE ARE IN 1969. NEWSFLASH TO THOSE PEOPLE - HIP HOP HAS BEEN RUNNING POP MUSIC CULTURE FOR YEARS, MORE THAN ROCK HAS IN DECADES. TIME TO GET OVER IT METHINKS!

HIP HOP IS IN A CLASSIC POP SONG STRUCTURE, LIKE LOTS OF OTHER MUSIC, IT WASNT BEFORE THE MID 80S WHEN RAP SONGS WOULD GO ON FOREVER, BUT IT HAS BEEN EVER SINCE THEN. I WOULD SAY THAT + THE FACT IT IS ALL RAPPED MAKES IT HIP HOP SONGWRITING. HIP HOP SONGWRITING CAN ALSO BE SEEN IN SHIT SONGS LIKE THAT NEW NATASHA BEDINGFIELD SONG.

i was in a hurry and missed that one!

Then you're negating all of the truly great pre-rock American pop music (or even European art song) that you claim to champion. Do you think Cole Porter's songs would be famous if he only performed them himself?

Which was also partly the case, since sheet music was also part of the charts back then, plus the same song was usually recorded by a bunch of different performers at once, putting more of an emphasis on the song itself, and thus, its composer.

there are plenty of rock bands who work the same way, though, aren't there? r.e.m. comes to mind. lots and lots of metal bands. etc.

The same could partly be said about Marr/Morrissey in the 80s, but that usually went on the expense of the musical qualities of the actual song.

Not that lyrics have ever had anything to do with music though.

Come on, that's just silly. Lyrics are what makes a song a song, as opposed to just a piece of instrumental music. You can't completely separate the lyrics from the melody in a good song.

i like what youre getting at here, but is that new freedom really less interactive with a specific track? i think rappers deeply interact with a specific beat. just bcs putting a rap acapella over any 4 bar beat is easier than pitchmatching harmonic vocals doesn't make rapping less complex. it's just complex in a different way.

dude, who cares who had the freedom first? muddy waters had it before dylan. and why bring up the specific problem of morrissey? none of those singers have freedom to nearly as complex a degree as some rappers.

I really don't agree with this. I think that there were certainly periods during hip hop's evolution when this was true - although certainly not at the beginning - but the balance in power between the lyricist and the producer is increasingly either equal or swings in the direction of the producer. Even Jay Z or Nas molds their lyrics to reinforce the beat or creating counter-rhythms. I guess that there are people who utilize this "freedom," but they're usually not very successful -- commercially or (in my mind) artistically.

Speaking from my own experience with the band I'm currently in. I'm not sure that we work a whole lot differently than probably a hip hop group...fact checking cuz is right here...we write riffs, mash the different riffs together and then later our singer listens to the tapes or us in practice and does her vocal lyrics and melodies...none of us (i think) can read music, so there's really not much theory or anything going on or "real composition" in the Geir sense of the word. We're taking bits we like and fitting them together like a puzzle...using different means at hip hop songwriters but no different conceptually.

Lyrics makes it easier to sing along. And that's it.