'Retaining artistic integrity while still getting paid'

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I'm supposed to deliver a talk on this in a few days for a 'business microforum'. I am shaky enough on the first part of the equation, but non-existent on the second. Help me pretend I know something - all links to good articles, or comments of your own, greatly appreciated. When I return from the 'panel discussion' I'll let you know how it went.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 29 November 2004 01:54 (twenty-one years ago)

Just show them CD Baby's P&L sheet. Derek Sivers is the embodiment of "retaining artistic integrity while still getting paid."

Joseph McCombs (Joseph McCombs), Monday, 29 November 2004 01:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Might prompt some thoughts: http://www.lnreview.co.uk/music/003341.php

Acme (acme), Monday, 29 November 2004 02:02 (twenty-one years ago)

fantastic, thanks to both of you. That's 100% better already.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Monday, 29 November 2004 02:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Looking forward to reading the transcript / watching your PPT display here.

Acme (acme), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 00:34 (twenty-one years ago)

You will get a full rundown.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 01:24 (twenty-one years ago)

Joseph Haydn was quite good at this during the 18th century.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 01:33 (twenty-one years ago)

That, Mr Hongro, is a very good point. And indeed, were he still alive, I'm sure he could give better advice than I.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 01:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh well. Thom Yorke does know something about it too ;)

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 01:42 (twenty-one years ago)

See the problem here isn't that others know, geir. it's that I don't. And yet I have to pretend to be an expert, because I'm on an expert panel. Why am I there? Because I was invited to DJ and they said, 'hey, we'll put you on a panel too'.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 01:44 (twenty-one years ago)

xxx-post For the first time ever, Geir Hongro OTMFM.
Also Beethoven' earned a small fortune for his "Wellington's Victory" symphony.

Bumfluff, Tuesday, 30 November 2004 01:53 (twenty-one years ago)

Are you getting paid for it?...could you speak about how in giving the talk you were somehow not compromising your artistic integrity despite the fact that you have no clue? or maybe having no clue and jumping headfirst is your version of artistic integrity...

bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 01:58 (twenty-one years ago)

Frankly, and more seriously, isn't this mainly about happening to have the same taste as a large audience?

I mean, the way I see it, artistic integrity is mostly about making music (or art) that you yourself think of as important, regardless of it selling or not. And then, if it appears to sell, then it seems that your taste sort of mixed well with the general public's taste.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:00 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm afriad bulbs you are VMOTFMS. That is my version of artistic integrity. However, it won't wash with a panel of experts at a business microforum. And yes, I am getting paid a small amount.

I might add that I've been researching in those links provided earlier and feel much better equipped to talk about this subject now, thanks again Joseph & Acme.x-post yes indeed Geir, I couldn't agree more. However, they have put me on a panel with this subject. and I do think it's an issue every artist must addres sooner or later, so fair play. The fact i haven't addressed it is down to my laziness and lack of intelligence - and I have paid for it as a result, not that I'm conplaining.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:03 (twenty-one years ago)

Regarding the interection of one's taste with the public:

* if the intersection is very large that may mean, but does not necessarily mean, that you will get paid. You may sign a bad deal, for example.

*if the intersection is relatively small, that may mean, but does not necessarily mean, that you will not get paid. If you are canny, you can still make music, and a living, with a small audience.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:06 (twenty-one years ago)

VMOTFMS

the s stands for son?

col if being a chancer is your version of artistic integrity (and i think being atopos is a very defensible, er, position) then why not talk about it? and i'd guess a panel of business experts are very keen to hear about someone producing value whilst being predisposed to "casualisation"

bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:19 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, bulbs, it does stand for 'son'. VFIM.

Well there is that angle. I have taken that angle before and people have walked out and I've never been invited back. But it's definitely an option. what do you think?

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:28 (twenty-one years ago)

I'm getting older, I get less pleasure out of pissing people off than i used to. I would rather give them something to grasp, even if it's only a small thing. Fnaaaar!!!

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:30 (twenty-one years ago)

sell out.

bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:36 (twenty-one years ago)

i dunno. i think i'd bail at this point...is the djing slot very important to you? i mean, this doesn't even sound like a laugh. is it AC related?

bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:37 (twenty-one years ago)

I had a major Nashville-based industry guy tell me that he felt the whole problem with Nashville was that everyone is workshopped and coached to death and has nothing left of themselves (of course it was probably half honesty, half sales pitch). To some extent, I think integrity sells. Of course, it sells much better if your version of integrity is somewhere within the parameters that mainstream audiences, or at least large niches, enjoy. But a band that bends over backward to cater to popular tastes often ends up sounding bland and not worth anyone's time. I guess what I'm saying is, don't compromise, except when you need to compromise, but even then don't compromise about the compromises you're willing to make.

Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:48 (twenty-one years ago)

That's good advice, for sure.

Bulbs, I cannae just bail. I agreed to do it!

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 02:49 (twenty-one years ago)

not sure what "getting paid" means. is that getting paid like jay-z? or getting paid like franz ferdinand? or somewhere below even that, which could still be quite a lot?

i have great admiration -- while sometimes but not always liking the actual music -- for artists like robert pollard, they might be giants, superchunk and ween, who have all done variations on the same basic career arc: spit out a bunch of music when you're starting out, connect with a small but passionate audience, connect with a bigger audience in a fleeting way if you're lucky (ween's "push th' little daises,' fer instance), but don't worry at all about that bigger audience as you keep moving on, just worry about the small but passionate cult while you relentlessly continue to do what you set out to do in the first place: make the music you love to make, make yourself happy, sign good contracts, pay your bills.

the chances that any of the above will ever spit out a gold record is cloze to zero. but the chances they will continue to make money with every record and every tour and every project is seemingly pretty high. and that to me is getting paid.

here's a good article from the new yorker on they might be giants, who "gross between one and two million dollars a year, a sum that would barely cover mariah carey's manicure budget, but which, even after expenses, provides flansburgh and linnell with a tidy income and that most elusive of commodities, artistic freedom."

they might be giants have diversified as they've gone along their merry way, running a record label here, making a children's album there, doing jingles over thataway. robert pollard has basically concentrated on a single commodity, his pop-rockist songs, making four, five or six albums' worth of 'em every year. but they've both paid close attention to the business of what they do, and they've both refused to stop believing in themselves, which i imagine is part of what "integrity" is all about.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 03:12 (twenty-one years ago)

you could also make production music under an assumed name.

bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 03:14 (twenty-one years ago)

also some artists or genres seem to keep their artistic integrity while still getting paid more readily than others (eg kylie, crunk, black metal, sting...): are there common factors?

bulbs (bulbs), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 03:18 (twenty-one years ago)

Yes, the black metal one is very interesting. It seems to amount to: don't give up your day job, make an album a year, never tour, give few interviews, build yer mystique, sell about 20 000 to 30 000, enough to top up the coffers and make another album next year.

Great post fact checking cuz, and thanks for the article link and ideas.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 03:31 (twenty-one years ago)

where is this? can we come along?

Savin All My Love 4 u (Savin 4ll my (heart) 4u), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 03:33 (twenty-one years ago)

Brisbane, Australia.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 03:39 (twenty-one years ago)

Colin I wonder if your numbers above are probably more accurate about death metal than black metal. At least in the deepest caverns of the BM underground maintaining your artistic integrity is all about not getting paid -- viz. limited editions of 666, artists joking about releasing single copies albums directly to E-Bay, the murkiness and impenetrability of the 'necro' production style, indecipherable band logos. All serve to uphold a 'kult' status unattainable by a group like Dimmu Borgir, at least by the standards of many self-styled 'true' black metal fans.

Does perception of artist's integrity enter the discussion here?

max davenport (axehead), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 03:55 (twenty-one years ago)

"New media" is kind of an interesting thing to tie in to yr discussion...

http://digitalmusic.weblogsinc.com/entry/1234000243021290/

Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 04:07 (twenty-one years ago)

Sounds like another tone-deaf move by a big industry player. What's the point of an "online-only" act?

Hurting (Hurting), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 04:11 (twenty-one years ago)

Point being that if someone is doing a talk on artistic integrity while getting paid that new media would be relevant.

Aaron W (Aaron W), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 04:15 (twenty-one years ago)

Col - are you not able to actually talk about how the two do tend to co-exist infrequently?

kit brash (kit brash), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 12:06 (twenty-one years ago)

kit, please elaborate?

the music mole (colin s barrow), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 20:56 (twenty-one years ago)

ie, are they insisting on you telling eager suit-wearers how to retain AI while still GP, as seems to be source of consternation?

(if not one imagines you have plenty of material to free-form on about perhaps making the music one has been making for years, suddenly achieving popular success but still not coining it bigtime; changing band name at peak of popularity (and label?) and how this may affect cred vs income OR NOT; former band members later taking overly commercial direction with music for multinationals while other members start own indie labels etc etc)

[or y'know if you're only there for DJing really, stand up and say "It can't be done! Next question?" then sit down and start re-sorting your record box from BPM to sleeve colour, everyone laughs and slaps your shoulder later]

kit brash (kit brash), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 11:15 (twenty-one years ago)

(if not one imagines you have plenty of material to free-form on about perhaps making the music one has been making for years, suddenly achieving popular success but still not coining it bigtime; changing band name at peak of popularity (and label?) and how this may affect cred vs income OR NOT; former band members later taking overly commercial direction with music for multinationals while other members start own indie labels etc etc)

hahahhahahahahaha

bulbs (bulbs), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 21:25 (twenty-one years ago)

hahahahaha

the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 21:34 (twenty-one years ago)

Well there is certainly that tangent. However, I do believe they're after the AI plus GP approach, as you put it.

the music mole (colin s barrow), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 21:37 (twenty-one years ago)


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