Hey, maybe they just like it!

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http://www.perfectsoundforever.com/v/2004051/features/76

Richie U. declares that 70s AOR - and the apparent wave of reappraisal and renewed love for it - is not OK. Hey, maybe people just actually like the music... right?

sleep (sleep), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 17:29 (twenty-one years ago)

A lot of sound and fury to my mind. I didn't grow up in that era = I'll take whatever I want from it and devil take the hindmost.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 17:33 (twenty-one years ago)

I can't stand most of that stuff either, but Unterberger is being ridiculously over the top here.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 17:34 (twenty-one years ago)

i think the thread title really is the most adequate response to something like that.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 17:39 (twenty-one years ago)

also, i didn't realise mojo was hip

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 17:42 (twenty-one years ago)

Just because you can create a rationale for why hipster-X would flaunt badge-Y (in accordance with - or a step ahead of - trend-Z), you can't assume that's what's actually happening.

sleep (sleep), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 17:47 (twenty-one years ago)

What was weird about this (and it came out 4 YEARS AGO) is that he acted as if hearing the Eagles on classic rock radio was something really new.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:02 (twenty-one years ago)

But it is interesting to note these trends. Four years ago (around the time of this article, actually), it seemed like kids taking guitar lessons wanted to learn more recent songs by Korn or The Offspring or else Jewel or Counting Crows. Now everyone seems to be asking to learn Deep Purple and AC/DC.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:07 (twenty-one years ago)

(and Linkin Park and Sum 41 and Outkast too but always mixed in with the classics. When I was first teaching, it seemed like hardly any kids would have even known who Deep Purple were.)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:08 (twenty-one years ago)

There was a reason so many of us – and, presumably, the overwhelming majority of Perfect Sound Forever readers – got heavily into alternative punk/new wave, great lost 1960s rock, avant-jazz, or some combination of genres that not played on the high-wattage stations. Doing so at a time when you risked scorn for not voting for "Freebird," "Roundabout," or "Stairway to Heaven" as your all-time favorite song in the high school newspaper poll took some courage.

I am this close to tearing down my Ramones poster in a fit of violence.

MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:12 (twenty-one years ago)

Oh please.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:13 (twenty-one years ago)

"Listen, kiddies: liking unpopular, easily-mocked music was OK in the '70s, when I was doin' it, but fuck that shit now, son"

MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:16 (twenty-one years ago)

the games hipsters play

latebloomer (latebloomer), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:19 (twenty-one years ago)

That essay reminded me a lot of Pink's "My Vietnam."

miccio (miccio), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 18:29 (twenty-one years ago)

Attempting to dignify this essay with serious consideration:

I'll take his word that this is (was?) a real phenomenon. I'm assuming that in that case it's something going on in indie rock circles, the only context in which this essay would even make sense. In that case, it may be a case of anti-backlash backlash. In the 80s and 90s, indie might have distinguished itself from the rock mainstream (which did treat classic rock as, well, classic) by shunning 70s AOR as a potential influence base. It was a way of marking oneself as different/original and of challenging oneself to find new influences since classic rock and its descendents were everywhere (sort of like making a point out of not using synths in the 80s) -- it was too obvious of an influence base maybe? At least when I was involved in indie rock as a musician (though not a connoisseur-listener) in the 90s (even if it was just in a shitty teenage Ottawa band), that's how it seemed to me. For some other people, it was even simpler - they had either just never really grown up liking that music and associated it with a mainstream culture they wanted to define themselves against or else they did grow up with it but grew to like it less than other things. Except that this sort of backlash may have seemed to go too far and just led to a new stifling orthodoxy where it was taboo to refer to regular classic rock music as an influence base - which may have led to a backlash against the backlash -> a lot of the indie rock people I met in Montreal in 2001/2002 (by which point I had no connection to that 'scene' anymore really) were all about picking out their favourite Thin Lizzy and Genesis records. But this is mostly conjecture on my part since, as i said, I haven't really had any real involvement with indie since I was a teenager, when perceptions are kinda skewed anyway.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 19:32 (twenty-one years ago)

I think also that by the 00s, rock of any sort was less of a dominant sound so indie rockers may have started claiming classic rock as 'their own' as opposed to, say, many hip-hop or techno fans who'd just never even been that aware of or interested in guitar-based pop, let alone to the point of making distinctions.

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 19:36 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually 2000 was when I started reconsidering and buying e.g. Boston and Deep Purple records so maybe he was actually onto something;)

sundar subramanian (sundar), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 19:39 (twenty-one years ago)

I admit I liked his "unsung heroes" book, but for the most part Richie Unterberger always comes across as a look-what-they've-done-to-our-music-Ma jerk, forever pining away for his beloved 1960s when the music mattered, man. A snob who can offer no conclusive reason why, say, the Byrds were superior to Aerosmith - it's just self evident. (I myself like the Byrds more than 'smith, but that's beside the point; and I'm not claiming they're BETTER.) Forever recycling that same old bullshit party line about how worthless '70s rock was until the Sex Pistols came along to save us blah blah blah. One thing I liked about the Allmusic Guide when I first discovered it was its "internal" rating system - the way the reviewers (Hi Ned!) judged records on their own merits (such as they were) to guide you to the very best Peter Frampton releases, rather than simply dismissing it in its entirety. Granted, EVERYBODY's bound to hate some of that stuff (never had much use for Foreigner or Eagles or Tool myself) but at least it was democratic. How in hell can Unterberger honestly critique any music any music which he's obviously never devoted any listening time to, other than in 10-second bursts while switching radio stations? How can a guy who sneers at heavy metal - an entire fucking genre - pass judgement on Deep Purple, an exemplary metal band by most folks standards? "Revisionist revivalism" my ass - more like righting a past injustice, since most of this stuff never got ANY critical recognition in the first place, even the now universally-praised Fleetwood Mac and Abba. I think the fact that MUSICIANS admit listening to this stuff should be validation enough; and I know there's professional writers right here on ILM more qualified than myself to say as much.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

"Indie rock" never meant shit to me. So I'm not even sure which bands from the 1990s Matador roster I'm supposed to like better than Deep Purple (who I like a lot). But I'll say this much - Seventies rock was much, much better, to my ear, than Sixties rock. Sixties artists/bands on my iPod - Jimi Hendrix, Sly Stone, Stooges, Blue Cheer. Seventies artists/bands on my iPod - Black Sabbath, Ramones, Rolling Stones (Let It Bleed, Sticky Fingers, Exile On Main St., Some Girls, and that's all), Bad Company, Allman Brothers Band, Bob Seger, Led Zeppelin, AC/DC (everything up to Back In Black, Australian versions of the first few), Stevie Wonder, Funkadelic, Steely Dan...you get the idea. Now, granted, I don't have any Boston or Styx or Fleetwood Mac or Eagles, but it seems to me that this guy's got his head up his fuckin' ass.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 19:43 (twenty-one years ago)

xpost to sundar

Attempting to dignify this essay with serious consideration

But can't you always just argue that maybe people checked out the music (maybe after ignoring it for a while), enjoyed it, and started listening to it more? How can you attribute peoples tastes to backlashes, hipster trends, and self-definition without even knowing them? Or, for that matter, even if you did know them?

Or, is it OK to do this when you're talking about a mass of (obviously detestable) anonymous hipsters?

Reading this article reminded me of my initial reaction to Britney's intense popularity among ILM list voters. I read into it as some kind of "statement" - hip/anti-hip, anti-rockist, popist, ironic, populist... something. And I was shown that sometimes people just like the music, whether I think it's great or shitty, fun or boring, etc. So I guess I just see an article like this as utterly pointless. It's time better spent doing, well, almost anything else, but reviewing music would be an appropriate substitute.

sleep (sleep), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 20:02 (twenty-one years ago)

things like the eagles and deep purple sold millions. this article isn't singling out *all* the people who bought deep purple and styx and eagles records - it's singling out the ones whose collections would be populated with cooler alt records as well, i guess. but the conclusion that these people MUST be faking it because they like cool records as well is based on the EXTREMELY SHAKY premise that the qualities that appeal to unhip music fans NEVER EVER appeal to hip music fans. it's silly.

weasel diesel (K1l14n), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 20:09 (twenty-one years ago)

How is this guy related to the Good Dr. Bill?

Sanjay McDougal (jaymc), Tuesday, 30 November 2004 20:13 (twenty-one years ago)

Actually, to be fair to Unterberger, I can empathize with him on one matter: I too resent a preference for older music being dismissed as mere "nostalgia". It's not nostalgia, it's an aesthetic preference, especially considering music you were too young or ignorant to appreciate first time around. A lot of old music is simply new music you haven't heard yet.

Myonga Von Bontee (Myonga Von Bontee), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 15:51 (twenty-one years ago)

I dare you to find an "alt record" "cooler" than Machine Head

MC Transmaniacon (natepatrin), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 16:06 (twenty-one years ago)

I agree with the notion that it seems as though *every* band/genre of the past gets revived and revered at some point, with its supporters lobbying hard to give it its "proper" place in the pantheon. In this respect, it's interesting that the article was written in Feb 2000, just as Napster was taking off. At that time, file-sharing, together with the never-ending stream of CD reissues, was making previously hard-to-find music more accessible than ever before.

Credit to him for recognizing/predicting this, thumbs down for dismissing entire genres in one sentence.

MindInRewind (Barry Bruner), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 16:34 (twenty-one years ago)

I dare you to find an "alt record" "cooler" than Machine Head

The Book of Taliesyn!!!!

I WIN!

M@tt He1geson (Matt Helgeson), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 16:50 (twenty-one years ago)

God what a piece of crap article. How can this guy HONESTLY listen to More than a Feeling, and with no cultural bias profess it does not make him want to rock out?

David Allen (David Allen), Wednesday, 1 December 2004 19:30 (twenty-one years ago)


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