swinging, funky free/noise jazz

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Heya folks,

So if a person were interested in a particular strain of jazzish stuff - stuff that was thrashy, noisy, howling and frenzied but sorta melodic too, and was "free" but also gutbucket bluesy and downright tuneful in parts, and was above all fucking FUNKY, what recommendations might the fine denizens of ILM make to such a person?

Examples I can think of in this vein would be Pharoah Sanders's stuff, particularly Karma and Izipho Zam, Sonny Sharrock's Black Woman, Joe McPhee's Nation Time (I started a thread about this one a while back called I think "Tell Me How Much I'm Going To Love 'Nation Time' - the answer is: A Whole Fucking Lot), and Luther Thomas's Funky Donkey (which I picked up last weekend and has consistently been setting off large atomic explosions of excellence in my eardrums).

Any other suggestions would be very, very much appreciated.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:42 (twenty years ago)

Ornette Coleman - Science Fiction, Body Meta, Dancing in Your Head, The Shape of Jazz to Come

Tony Williams Lifetime - Emergency!

John McLaughlin - Devotion

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:45 (twenty years ago)

Love Cry Want? Miles Davis' fusion stuff? Tony Williams' first couple of Lifetime records?

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

Much of Sun Ra's discog.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

(x-post)

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:47 (twenty years ago)

Wolfgang Dauner's Et Cetera

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:48 (twenty years ago)

Thanks a bunch, keep 'em coming - forgot abt. Ornette - I have Shape and Dancing and love both of them. Got the McLaughlin album and that's fantastic too. I'll have to check out the Tony Williams one (I've heard some of the later Williams stuff and wasn't too crazy about it - this is significantly different I'd imagine/hope?) and those other two Ornette discs.

And duh, can't believe I didn't include the Miles stuff - he was my gateway into this kinda sound.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:49 (twenty years ago)

I reckon This Is Our Music is the funkiest of those early Atlantic Ornetter albums. Albert Ayler's Spirits and Spiritual Unity are really bluesy, maybe not so funky though.

― Don King of the Mountain (noodle vague), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

James Carter - Layin' in the Cut (JC with Marc Ribot and a bunch of 80s Ornette alums)

Ask the Ages, obv.

Maybe Bloodcount?

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:55 (twenty years ago)

I'd say the first Bad Plus 'These Are the Vistas' too, but then again I would.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:56 (twenty years ago)

Also maybe some Roland Shannon Jackson and Billy Bang stuff though I can't think of any specific titles off the top of my head.

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:58 (twenty years ago)

Oh, Fred Anderson's stuff with and Hamid Drake, TOTALLY.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 17:59 (twenty years ago)

Happy Apple too.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

zack, seriously.

― petesmith (plsmith), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:00 (twenty years ago)

if it ain't juez i ain't interested

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:02 (twenty years ago)

(I've heard some of the later Williams stuff and wasn't too crazy about it - this is significantly different I'd imagine/hope?)

Yes, definitely (if by later you mean 80s stuff and not just the 2nd Lifetime album).

― walter kranz (walterkranz), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:03 (twenty years ago)

Jerome Cooper - The Unpredictability of Predictability

― Old School (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

actually, Ego is kind of a fucked up record too. not sure I *love* it, but a could easily call it "funky free".

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

Soft Machine - Noisette

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:06 (twenty years ago)

Um...Naked City?

― Keith C (lync0), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:11 (twenty years ago)

Weather Report - Live in Tokyo

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:12 (twenty years ago)

L'Infonie - In C (available on the Terry Riley Reed Streams reissue)

― Dominique (dleone), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:16 (twenty years ago)

Sam Rivers Crystals might apply. Also, Byard Lancaster's It's Not Up to Us, some James Blood Ulmer, maybe. Though it's not quite funky (or is it?) Rashied Ali/Frank Lowe Duo Exchange.

― mcd (mcd), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 18:18 (twenty years ago)

Go out and buy "Attica Blues" by Archie Shepp right now.

― William Selman (William Selman), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 20:41 (twenty years ago)

Art Ensemble of Chicago - Les Stances A Sophie

― Matt #2 (Matt #2), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 20:55 (twenty years ago)

Ask The Ages has Sonny and Pharaoh, and it's great.

― xavier mcshane (xave), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 20:59 (twenty years ago)

xpost: that's immediately what came to mind for me too.

― Spencer Chow (spencermfi), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 20:59 (twenty years ago)

Henry Threadgill's "Too Much Sugar for a Dime", runner-up in the ILM's Best Jazz Albums of the 90's poll, seems like it might fit the bill. I don't know for sure because I've only listened to the very beginning and I wasn't into the shred guitar.

(don't worry, I'll give it a good listen at some point)

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:04 (twenty years ago)

Ellery Eskelin - The Sun Died

Kind of soulful, gut-bucket blues-jazz with noisy free elements - featuring Marc Ribot on scuzz-guitar and Kenny Wollesen on funky white-boy drums.

― o. nate (onate), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

Jerome Cooper - The Unpredictability of Predictability

I remember liking some of this!

― Rockist_Scientist (RSLaRue), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:06 (twenty years ago)

Eddie Gale - "Ghetto Music" & "Black Rhythm Happening"

― Mad Senti (jaxon), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:14 (twenty years ago)

http://www.art-ificial.com/soularfone/images/a_psych02.jpg

― Mad Senti (jaxon), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:27 (twenty years ago)

second the fred anderson w/ hamid drake, specifically "2 days in april" where they're joined by kidd jordan and wm parker. it's got everything you're looking for.

― dan (dan), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:32 (twenty years ago)

Jerome Cooper - The Unpredictability of Predictability
I remember liking some of this!

yeah, "Bert the Cat" has that squeeky horn/drum groove that goes on forever.

― Old School (sexyDancer), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:33 (twenty years ago)

I wanna hear Fat Kid Wednesdays, the new Minneapolis new jazz supergroup.

― Jordan (Jordan), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 21:34 (twenty years ago)

miles davis - isle of wight

really electric miles is your man; ask the ages came to mind but it's certainly not a 'funky' record

― jake b. (cerybut), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 22:50 (twenty years ago)

Ooh, this is the type of jazz that I love too.
Things I would recommend:
AALY Trio: I Wonder if I was Screaming
Albert Ayler: Bells/Prophecy
Alice Coltrane: Ptah the El Daud
Archie Shepp: Mama Too Tight (if you like Nation Time, you should love this)
Joe Henderson: El Barrio
Larry Young: Lawrence of Newark
Rahsaan Roland Kirk: Prepare Thyself to Deal With a Miracle
Miles Davis: In a Silent Way
Nomo: s/t (nomomusic.com)

There's a fair bit more. I don't know how angular you like things, so I didn't mention Painkiller or Peter Brotzman, but they're screamers...

― js (honestengine), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 22:59 (twenty years ago)

Music Revelation Ensemble: The first two are great, can't attest to anything further in their discog.

John Zorn's Electric Masada 50.4 (2004 live release on Tzadik)

The Soul Jazz compilation NEW THING! is deep into the free funk, ddespite the misappropriation of the New Thing tag.

Search also the Amalgam reissues on FMP, which successively add da funk to da free.

― doug watson (solid air), Thursday, 13 October 2005 02:18 (twenty years ago)

I don't really get where some genre lines are, but I think these could be dug in this context:

The reissues of the America label on Verve France, like Archie Shepp's Black Gypsy, Clifford Thornton Quartet's Panther and the Lash, and the Art Ensemble's Phase One and Certain Blacks are fantastic.

If we're talking about kosmigroov I would have to throw in the Cinematic Orchestra. (They cover Art Ensemble on their soundtrack to Man with a Movie Camera.)

Brigitte Fontaine's Comme a la Radio.

Miles' Agharta and Pangaea.

Sun Ra - On Jupiter and Sleeping Beauty.

Krzysztof Komeda's Astigmatic.

Min Bul.

Ornette - Tone Dialing.

Spring Heel Jack & Blue Series Continuum - Masses

Dave Pike Set.

The New Thing! comp is most excellent, yes.

By the way, the reissue of Stances a Sophie combined with People in Sorrow is mastered off vinyl. The Soul Jazz Stances a Sophie is the real deal, or at least it's mastered off a really nice copy.

― Brakhage (brakhage), Thursday, 13 October 2005 03:02 (twenty years ago)

Odean Pope, Almost Like Me

Some of the stuff listed above may be great but is definitely not funky, e.g. "Bells", "Ask the Ages," "Comme a la Radio"

― These Robust Cookies (Robust Cookies), Thursday, 13 October 2005 03:11 (twenty years ago)

Well, I think it's understood that we're not exactly talking about Sly and the Family Stone or Zapp records here.

I'm puzzled that anyone would call Brandon Ross' and Masuujaa's contributions to Henry Threadgill's Very Very Circus 'shred guitar' and would very quickly second "Too Much Sugar For a Dime" as a great recommendation.

Howabout Charles Mingus, Changes One and Two? They've got that soul/gospel beat, but Don Pullen goes pretty far out on his solos.

― Austin Still (Austin, Still), Thursday, 13 October 2005 03:17 (twenty years ago)

Yeah I know, but if "Ask the Ages" is funky then so is the entire output of the John Coltrane Quartet.

― These Robust Cookies (Robust Cookies), Thursday, 13 October 2005 03:24 (twenty years ago)

Oh and various tracks from much of Threadgill's post-Air output would fit, e.g. "Come Carry the Day" from Carry the Day.

― These Robust Cookies (Robust Cookies), Thursday, 13 October 2005 03:26 (twenty years ago)

Jamaaladeen Tacuma's first two LPs would fit your description perfectly, but they're pretty hard to find. Also, The Great Pretender by Lester Bowie.

― Tuomas (Tuomas), Thursday, 13 October 2005 04:28 (twenty years ago)

there's a record by the Human Arts Ensemble called "Under the Sun" (73) that's EXACTLY what you're looking for. funky drums and squealy free (but melodic) soloing. features oliver lake, lester bowie & c. bobo shaw.

also reminds me a lot of the Art Ensemble of Chicago album Message to Our Folks. especially the track Rock Out.

― Mad Senti (jaxon), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:19 (twenty years ago)

it's been a long time since i've heard them, but what about the Lounge Lizards? from what i remember, there were afro-funk rhythms and Arto Lindsay skronk on top

― Mad Senti (jaxon), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:21 (twenty years ago)

and i second that New Thing! comp on souljazz.

― Mad Senti (jaxon), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:21 (twenty years ago)

and finally Archie Shepp's "Blasé" is a more mellow, bluesy affair, but sorta fits into this description.

― Mad Senti (jaxon), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:22 (twenty years ago)

Well from the British point of view - or the British/expatriate South African point of view - you have to have Chris McGregor's Brotherhood of Breath, my favourite band of all time, a brilliant and still unsurpassed mix of township kwela, Mingus swing/roar and free jazz tumult. Absolutely ANYTHING you see by them, get it. In the same vein there are the early Keith Tippett albums - I Am Here, You Are There (1970), Dedicated To You But You Weren't Listening (1971) and Centipede's epic Septober Energy (1971). All definitely lean towards the prog mode but they are also funky and noisily abstract at the same time. Finally, acquaint yourself with Mike Westbrook's Love Songs (1970) and Metropolis (1971). Both total classics, and the latter has a double big band with double rhythm section playing freaky improv and cut-glass funk at the same time!

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:34 (twenty years ago)

man, i've been meaning to get that Tippett "dedicated to you" album. what's it like? i was thinking it was gonna be sorta proggy, but the description makes it sound way jazzy & free

― Mad Senti (jaxon), Thursday, 13 October 2005 06:53 (twenty years ago)

Herbie Hancock's Thrust, Sextant, Headhunters

― gear (gear), Thursday, 13 October 2005 07:16 (twenty years ago)

(xp)

It's surprisingly funky as well as being free and semi-abstract. Kind of Soft Machine-ish, but then Robert Wyatt, Roy Babbington and Elton Dean are all in this particular line-up.

― Marcello Carlin (nostudium), Thursday, 13 October 2005 07:33 (twenty years ago)

Your description fits Last Exit perfectly - I'm amazed nobody else has suggested them. Koln's just been reissued. Their only disappointing release would be Iron Path, a studio album. Otherwise, try side 2 of Julian Priester's Love, Love. Bill Laswell and Peter Brotzmann's Low Life. Ornette Coleman and Pat Metheney's Song X. The Thing's Sounds Like a Sandwich. Oh and Scorch Trio are pretty hair raising.

― Eleventhvolume, Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:28 (twenty years ago)

Luther Thomas "Funky Donkey" (atavistic/UMS reissue)

Phillip Cohran's Artistic Heritage Ensemble's "On the Beach" (aestuarium)

Archie Shepp "Attica Blues" (Impulse)

― Brian Turner (btwfmu), Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:44 (twenty years ago)

Speaking of McGregor, Downtown Music Gallery in NYC is selling well-produced CDR reissues of a bunch of Mongezi Feza-related 70s discs, some very funky ones in there to boot.

― Brian Turner (btwfmu), Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:46 (twenty years ago)

whoops sorry , didnt see luther and archie cited already...

― Brian Turner (btwfmu), Thursday, 13 October 2005 11:51 (twenty years ago)

I would like to thank the contributors to this thread for keeping me poor for the forseeable future. Rawk.

― Zack Richardson (teenagequiet), Thursday, 13 October 2005 12:59 (twenty years ago)

'Ask the Ages' isn't funky, but it definitely swings.

I love the shit out of the Lounge Lizards, good call!

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 13:27 (twenty years ago)

Last Chance Disco by Acoustic Ladyland doesn't fit the bill but by golly it FITS THE BILL.

― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Thursday, 13 October 2005 13:30 (twenty years ago)

hey zack, i think rory has that chris mcgregor album that marcello suggests slightly upthread - i think he got it that first time we went to true vine...

― petesmith (plsmith), Thursday, 13 October 2005 13:56 (twenty years ago)

For a more recent album that fits the description:

Jeff Parker-The Relatives

It's not entirely very "skronky" because there are no horns on the record, but the soloing (guitar and rhodes) is pretty out there. It's comprised of "In a Silent Way" styled gospel-y fusion pieces and spaghetti western noir-ish tunes with weird time signatures; often in the same song.

Alice Coltrane is good for your description but I know she's been well covered on ILM.

I'll reccommend some skronky, funky jazz organ records. Larry Young is from before the free jazz era, but "Lawrence of Newark" has some crazy modal playing over gospel progressions.

― Scott H, Thursday, 13 October 2005 15:15 (twenty years ago)

Thanks for reminding me about that Jeff Parker record, I keep meaning to hear it.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 15:17 (twenty years ago)

isotope 217

― ambrose (ambrose), Thursday, 13 October 2005 15:51 (twenty years ago)

how about some ah that ethiopian stuff?!?

― hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:01 (twenty years ago)

Derek Bailey's "Mirakle" gives me this fix.

Scott OTM re: Lawrence of Newark.

These records are both orange.

― Dr. Gene Scott (shinybeast), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:04 (twenty years ago)

So does Bailey's MIRAKLE work any better than Tacuma/Weston's free(funk)lancing on James Carter's LAYIN' IN THE CUT? Whatever, I'm way curious to hear the former.

― doug watson (solid air), Thursday, 13 October 2005 16:55 (twenty years ago)

You don't like Layin' in the Cut? I do, but I probably haven't heard it since 2001.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 17:00 (twenty years ago)

Well, it works better inasmuch as Bailey is incapable of producing the "SNL" tone.

― Dr. Gene Scott (shinybeast), Thursday, 13 October 2005 17:12 (twenty years ago)

(That is to say, Mirakle better)

― Dr. Gene Scott (shinybeast), Thursday, 13 October 2005 17:14 (twenty years ago)

I'd rather have stunt saxophone playing than Bailey-skronk, but "SNL guitar" is hilarious.

― Jordan (Jordan), Thursday, 13 October 2005 17:21 (twenty years ago)

You don't like Layin' in the Cut? I do, but I probably haven't heard it since 2001.

It's also been awhile since I've heard it but I remember at the time thinking that Carter's stylistic shift seemed more superficial than committed. His lack of followup in the past five years has somewhat confirmed this suspicion. Maybe that's an unfair judgement given that there were a lot of career one-offs in this genre-- check Harry Whittaker, Horacee Arnold, Shelly Manne. And yet these sounded convincing.

Somehow Burnt Sugar has escaped mention so far. Their first four CDs fit perfectly here. (Pete Cosey guests on the fourth lp, THE RITES.)

Phil Freeman to thread-- I thought he journeyed to this area for his Miles book?

― doug watson (solid air), Thursday, 13 October 2005 17:23 (twenty years ago)

two weeks pass...

Melvin Jackson's Funky Skull. LP got reissued recently, I think Dusty Groove has some.

― Brian Turner (btwfmu), Monday, 31 October 2005 05:12 (twenty years ago)

three years pass...

http://www.allaboutjazz.com/styles/thething2006.jpg
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/styles/thething2006.jpg
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/styles/thething2006.jpg

― grindcore is an end-run on HOOSic (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Saturday, 15 November 2008 22:42 (seventeen years ago)

Ornette - "Opening of the Caravan of Dreams" and "Of Human Feelings" = awesome.

― what U cry 4 (jim), Saturday, 15 November 2008 22:48 (seventeen years ago)

The music on both is great but the weedy production lets the records down somewhat.

Ornette's eighties records tend to work a lot better when the studio gets used as a fifth (or eighth) instrument - see the amazing '86-8 triple whammy of Song X, In All Languages and Virgin Beauty.

― You're asking for £50,000 of my children's inheritance? (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 17 November 2008 09:22 (seventeen years ago)

(but Ulmer's Tales Of Captain Black from '79, which features Ornette, is dazzlingly fantastic)

― You're asking for £50,000 of my children's inheritance? (Marcello Carlin), Monday, 17 November 2008 09:23 (seventeen years ago)

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