Do you think that this poll madness is connected to tha fact that 2007 looks like a weak year for new music releases so far?

every year is a weak year for music

It's because it's a new(ish) feature, still.

As for it being a weak year, not from where I've sat, but then again my tastes are vaguely esoteric. Having said that I don't have an album of the year at this point.

xxpost

No, it's the music geeks need to rate and rank taken to it's logical conclusion.

Plus the poll option is a bit of a novelty.

in fact, this thread should be a poll

for releases, no. for albums, yes. (kinda)

there's been a ton of awesome shit that's come out this year, y'all crazy

it's been a pretty great year for music. maybe the poll madness is related to its ilx mark 2 novelty

i kinda preferred last years polls to 2007s polls

OTM

This year is great from where I'm standing.

Never say that year x is a weak year...

Every year in the history of music has been of identical quality, and if you don't agree it's because you don't get out enough, are old and jaded, young and ignorant, have closed your ears and mind to fun, are bitter, repressed, hate disco, guitars, girls, boys, blacks, whites, dancing, smoking pot, teenagers, thoughtful complexity, guilty pleasures, other cultures, and Pinkberry.

no one is perfect...

no, I think the popularity of polls is indicative of something rather more depressing than "music is having a bad year" (which it isn't, I don't think)

God bless Ned for thinking "it's 'cause they're new," but they're not really any more

Elucidate please, J0hn D.

I also think it's because they're new.

Also, I've said it before but I like them because they give voice to an ILM silent majority. I'm all for challenging opinions, but there are loudmouths who give the wrong impression about ILM consensus, and it takes consensus to meaningfully deconstruct consensus.

"I also think it's because they're new"

might be,but the number of acts that didn't get the "best of" poll are still endless...

I've been fairly happy with the quality of discussion on the 2 or 3 I've started so far.

Elucidate please, J0hn D

Well, this is opening a can of worms I guess, and I don't like to sound like a crank, even when I'm being one. But every time somebody wakes up an older thread, it's immediately clear - you'd have to be blind to miss it - that people used to write in longer sentences around here, and in bigger paragraphs, and respond in kind to these long paragraphs filled with long sentences which sometimes tried to grapple with somewhat difficult questions, whether or taste or politics or what have you. Over time, this changed, sometimes for better - there's nothing wrong with being forced by a prevalent mood into saying what one means briefly and concisely - but generally for the worse. The quality of the discussion got lower as the population of the board increased; I don't think that's really too surprising, nor a particularly elitist observation, though it's the sort of remark that's easy prey if someone wants to level such a charge.

Polls are popular because one can start one without much to say, and are kind of ideal for the post-long-discussion ILM; they don't require nor encourage much dialogue or thought, though they don't rule it out, either, and so they encourage participation (which is good) without demanding much by way of input (in my estimation, not so good). There can be a good poll thread; there have been several; they're just less likely to be of much interest. They are, I mean, an indication that ILM is, these days, less about having discussions that about making conversation.

Just before the flak begin to come in (I'm sure someone will be happy to point me at all manner of very dumb threads from the past, or dumb things said by myself, etc) I want to say again: no, poll threads are not necessarily dull. But they're likely to be, and to continue cropping up on subjects that people aren't even particularly interested in. They're water-cooler stuff, which is fine - Spencer's point is a good one. At the same time, they very loudly point out that ILM is a rather less challenging place than it once was. It's still fun; I hope I wouldn't be here otherwise. But it's hardly the sort of place where the conversation's so intriguing that you can hardly wait to get to the computer to see how things have developed since morning, which for me it once was. Maybe that's just me though.

TL;DR

the long paragraphs are over on the big hoos vs the argonautshomophobes ile thread

i just wish ILM could be debased of it's obsession with both the Album format and the ranking of Albums based on press EOY lists. I still think polls are intrinsically better than list threads. i'd give the novelty another 3 months at least tho.

Why do you dislike albums so much?

1) albums are great
2) this is a fantastic year for music, shaping up to be best of the 00's already

One thing I don't like about polls is they always seem to disappear before the results are in.

J0hnD I think Ned has addressed various reason for the change in tone/style of discourse on some other thread

I don't think you have to hate albums to think there are more interesting routes into conversation about something than picking favourite ones!

xpost yes, the key is to make the running time short.

I think the first half of this year is almost as good as the whole of 2006 was for albums btw. Of Montreal, Electrelane, Panda Bear, Deerhoof, Dragon Or Emperor... superb stuff.

(and J0hn if I remember correctly Nedfocused on the community being composed of a small number of people concerned with larger aesthetic issues - which they have since by and large been worked out for themselves. as the board expanded and those issues diminished in relevance, the tone and style changed, the need to re-cover that ground - even with new posters - gradually receded... but there are still plenty of sharp folks here willing to engage in deeper analysis of various elements of music, Tim Ellison's a good example)

x-post

As a person who doesn't really believe in people "working out aesthetic issues" - I think aesthetics are a lifelong, abiding concern, not a puzzle one solves - I have a hard time with that part of the assertion. I don't deny that there are interesting things on ILM & as I say I hope I wouldn't be hanging around so much if it were all crap. I'm just saying that polls, by and large, are dull, and less likely to foster lively discussion (though it does happen, of course; interesting people will have interesting discussions even if there's nothing to talk about), and reflective of the diminished state of the discourse. I do reject entirely the notion that the reason there are fewer involved discussions is that everybody's reached some level of enlightenment satisfactory to him/herself. The curious are never likely to reach such a state, on any question, I think, and thank God for that.

As I say, I know this is a can of worms, people tend to take it very personally when somebody says that ILX is better or worse than it once was. Sorry for that.

Polls can be really useful for some of us lesser mortals, the Krautrock one's given me some good heads up.

Not to say that most of them aren't shite obvs. Best album by an artist ones tend to be bobbins imho.

I do reject entirely the notion that the reason there are fewer involved discussions is that everybody's reached some level of enlightenment satisfactory to him/herself.

I am trying to find Ned's post on this subject and am being frustrated - I don't mean to speak for him as my own position is probably closer to yr own.

the longer i'm here, the more i read, and the more i get more tentative about posting long, really involved things for fear of looking stupid.

Polls can be really useful for some of us lesser mortals, the Krautrock one's given me some good heads up.

But *what* has it given you that a general "recommend me some Krautrock" thread wouldn't? It's restricted the field of discussion to "things Julian Cope talked about once", and knowing that more people like one album than some arbritrary others (but you don't know who all these people are because they are voting without giving reasons) surely isn't going to sway you any more than actually reading a recommendation or two from people who can expand at length for their reasoning, and whose opinion you have grown to trust?

"things Julian Cope talked about once"

to be fair, this covers quite a LOT of ground

I second Matt on the looking stupid thing. Every time I try to venture historical opinions or broader thoughts beyond "this album is good/bad and here's why" I get smacked down really hard by people who are more knowledgeable than I am or who can at least make a more experienced argument than I can regardless of whether I'm right or wrong. I mean, I learn stuff from those experiences, but it still stings.

It's restricted the field because it's a poll...but you can still debate what was left out. Hence it's pretty much the same as a recommend me your favourite krautrock thread.

AND re: looking stupid - it also took me a couple of years to feel comfortable with posting here because of the amount of people who clearly could shoot down any post I made. I didn't get more knowledgeable, I just gave less of a shit and thought I'd see how it went.

It has the usual chat plus a handy poll for people to look at quickly if they want a recommendation or 2 without having to read nearly 200 posts.

I don't post opinions much, nor have I any desire to. I lurk and learn a lot, and leave the educational and critical bits to people who are better at it than me, because my inane blatherings would certainly drag the rest of the place down (as they are doing right now, I imagine). Anyway, I still don't understand why you need a poll to discuss things, especially when you're defending them by saying you don't have to talk about the things in the poll anyway.

xpost, oh, right, so we'll assume it's not random googlers or people voting for a laugh or whatever, shall we? "43 people who read this board and could be arsed to vote like this" doesn't necessarily mean "this is worthwhile". Who the fuck reads a messageboard without actually reading it, especially when looking for recommendations about new music?

STUFF IT, LURKIE

sorry, dat was harsh. :p

I do reject entirely the notion that the reason there are fewer involved discussions is that everybody's reached some level of enlightenment satisfactory to him/herself. The curious are never likely to reach such a state, on any question, I think, and thank God for that.

I can't agree with this at all. I think curious people can reach answers they find good enough, in certain areas, while maybe thinking about other things (or going off and doing something that doesn't involve that much thinking). Maybe I'm just not truly curious or whatever. People are going to prioritize what to bother thinking about differently as they get older and have more experience.

The polls are pretty much what ILM deserves at this point. If most thread revivals are getting 2 or 3 new answers at best (even when the revival bumps are thoughtful posts) and any new question that deals with *big aesthetic issues* brings both ridicule and "sigh we've done this before", the polls are all you really have left. Sure, there's the 'rolling' threads, but these are sooo music critic/promo-mailer-centered that the average reader can't really post anything of use anyway.

Anyway, time for a new poll.

I was gonna start a "favorite verse on Illmatic" poll inspired by the Enter the Wu-Tang one but I don't have my copy with me and I can't remember 'em all off the top of my head

Don't worry about looking stupid or having poor musical taste. (What ever that is?) If you read or lurk on here long enough you'll notice that everyone occasionally posts stupid, misinformed, or inane comments. So don't stress about it. Besides, I’ve learned more from discussions where I was wrong than discussions where I was right. I also think the long analytical posts are still here as well as good threads. What’s changed is the ratio of signal to noise. No doubt there’s a lot more noise than before. Polls can be either though I think they tend to be the latter because they’re so easy to start. The best threads usually start with a good premise or at least a provocative one. Polls by their nature go for consensus and reinforce the status quo. ILM at its occasional best goes for questioning. challenging, or overturning it.

One thing that hasn’t been mentioned is blogs. Several posters, who in the past made long well thought out posts, no longer do so because they save the best things for the blog.

I agree with Ned and several others. It’s been a great year for music. You just need to open your ears and know where to look.

If most thread revivals are getting 2 or 3 new answers at best (even when the revival bumps are thoughtful posts) and any new question that deals with *big aesthetic issues* brings both ridicule and "sigh we've done this before", the polls are all you really have left.

Hotcox be on point.

I second Matt on the looking stupid thing. Every time I try to venture historical opinions or broader thoughts beyond "this album is good/bad and here's why" I get smacked down really hard by people who are more knowledgeable than I am or who can at least make a more experienced argument than I can regardless of whether I'm right or wrong. I mean, I learn stuff from those experiences, but it still stings.

I third Matt's opinion. That's not the only reason I mostly lurk and rarely contribute, but it's probably the biggest reason. Before I post anything, I generally ask myself two questions: (a) is what I'm saying adding anything of value to the discussion and (b) am I opening myself up to ridicule? Admittedly, sometimes I post even if I answer "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second question, but more often than not, I just delete the comment I was preparing.

thank god.

:)

ILXor was my north, my south, my east and west
My working week and my Sunday rest.
My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
I thought that love would last forever: I was wrong

leavethecapital touches upon one of the crucial differences between ILM of yore and its current incarnation: the emergence of blogs having lead the contributors with itchy writing fingers to satisfy their needs elsewhere. a second difference, and i'm only guessing here, could be that the halcyon days coincided with many people's first foray into the world of forums, lending them the enthusiasm that comes with discovering kindred souls and a sense of the collective filling some sort of a tabula rasa. now, this sounds like a gloomy epitaph but it's really not, it's just that sometimes there is a perfect storm of creativity, and we should rejoice at what were instead of mourning what no longer is.

Yeah, forgot about Fennesz/Sakamoto there -- also, Apparat and Boratto. I suspect I'll really like Battles once I've finally heard it. Also I've barely touched on the various psych-crazed things I've loved this year but that's almost a category unto itself. Etc. etc. Suffice to say, music! Gotta love it! Great year!

yeah.

there's a whole new 'generation' of ilxors (perhaps lacking the relative rigor and postgraduate polish of old but game minds) dying to chew on some of what the old guard takes to be their intellectual discards

Hi dere.

Sorry if I seem like I'm not engaging, I'm just trying to echo what seem to be important points.

OK, here ya go:

Fennesz & Sakamoto - Cendre
Stars of the Lid - And Their Refinement and Decline
Blues Control - Puff
The Cherry Blossoms - ST
Pantha Du Prince - This Bliss
Throbbing Gristle - The Endless Not
Gianluca Becuzzi & Fabio - The Stones Know Everything

I haven't had time to keep up with metal and hip hop lately so I know I'm leaving alot out and of course everything is subject to change.

my *year end* list

Chainsaw Paws "This Light"
Giant Skyflower Band "Blood of the Sunworm"
Senim Silla "The Name The Motto The Outcome"
The National "Boxer"
The Woods "At Rear House"
Ex-Cocaine "Esta Guerra"
The Skull Defekts "Skkull"
Panda Bear "Person Pitch"
Bill Callahan "Woke On a Whaleheart"

I reallly want to hear that Cherry Blossoms lp.

And that Paula Frazer album is very pleasant, Ned.

Most of the best releases tend to appear in the second half of the year anyway.

there have been several great releases this year. my favorites are:

Neil Young - Massey Hall
Battles - Mirrored
Deerhoof - Friend Opportunity
Field - From Here We Go Sublime
Panda Bear - Person Pitch

pretty standard, it looks like. hopefully there's some RAP on the horizon.

oh man how did I forget Panda Bear?

Most of the best releases tend to appear in the second half of the year anyway.

-- Geir Hongro, Thursday, 31 May 2007 01:53 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

statz plz

Shit, I forgot Von Sudenfed.

The Panda Bar album has a lot of weak stuff

yea, but it has enough good stuff.

I think it's actually crazy solid as a whole. But "as a whole" might be important.

i don't like the polls because it seems like a lot of discussion on them is centred not on the music, but about the poll (eg: "how could you leave [insert album here] out???"). it adds nothing.

think i agree with j0hn about aesthetic discussions not being a puzzle to solve. i get a sense that a lot of this type of discussion died off when the old posters got so exhausted by constantly having to defend their positions by new posters asking the same questions on rockism etc that they just stopped getting involved in it any more. (end-point of this is fuckheads like wagemann trolling the place.)

Meantime I've just found out Chris Connelly has a new album, and I'll be pretty surprised if that doesn't make it on my eventual top ten, but we'll see...

rock...ism? xp

Rocktastic

The stuff that really makes me go UGH this year includes:

HIP-HOP
Da Drought 3 - Lil Wayne
The Brick: Bodega Chronicles - Joel Ortiz
Return of the Mac - Prodigy
Red Gone Wild - Redman
Return of the Magnificient - Jazzy Jeff

OTHER SHIT
Sound of Silver - LCD Soundsystem
From The Plantation To The Penitentiary - Wynton Marsalis
Conqueror - Jesu
23 - Blonde Redhead
that one Psyopus album

damn actually if nothing else came out this year i'd be pretty satisfied with that as my year end top ten.

da drought 07 morelike
lock thred omg

people lamenting the good old days should try to start some threads - i don't see the many of the people complaining about the sucky state of ilm doing this.

and not to call anybody out, but j0hn has lots of fans/friends here, he could easily generate some active threads (but also your busy, j0hn, so i can understand if you don't)

If there were less elitist cunts on ILM, then less folks would feel afraid to look stupid here, more newbies/lurkers would add their discourse and life would be infinitely more interesting. But no! Let's keep it elitist, snarky and BORING why doncha?

And actually I'm amazed at folks who can get on here and say "it was like this" and proceed to tell how musical styles morphed into this or that or this was cultural history, because frankly even if I had thoughts like that I could never embarass myself by being so *sure*, so it's like the show is only stolen by those with the guts to pretend. But there's no proof they are right. There exists no actual hard proof these people are right. They just steal the show because they PRETEND that cold hard, immutable, universally agreed upon facts back them up.

As much as I have complaints about Marcello I'll never forget one thing he said: good music should be immobilizing. And he's right. When music is right and it does what's intended to do then rational thought or discourse is not possible. This is a very basic reason why I will never understand folks who write about music for a living. Because when it's good, when it really matters, you should not be able to explain it with words at all.

/gauntlet

If there were less elitist cunts on ILM, then less folks would feel afraid to look stupid here, more newbies/lurkers would add their discourse and life would be infinitely more interesting.

oh wehhh. There are elitists cunts on any board, and they're a test of your internet mettle, not any kind of authority.

and imo newbies/lurkers add little.

Exactly! Newbies take note!

xpost

How the hell do you know, Kenan? How do you know that someone isn't out there who could actually have something to add but doesn't? You don't know that.

I'm sure there are fine people out there who would love to add amazing thing to internet discussions, but if they don't then they... didn't. That's what I mean by "add little."

I mean, lurkers add nothing, hence the name. Newbies are subject to some hazing, maybe, but that shouldn't stop them from adding to the discussion.

I just feel like that argument that "people would post more here if other people weren't dicks" insults an outsider's ability to spot the dicks and ignore them.

so what great good came about as a result of louis jagger's triumph over adversity

Well, fair enough. I've never understood the lurker's restraint, me.

xpost

self-xpost sorry I don't even know who my snark is directed at

50 hours or so until I can sleep the sleep of the dead

haha

someday i will meet louis jagger and buy him a beer, and that's fine.

is he really banned or something? i miss all the best UPHEAVALS

No he's not banned he's just OFFED

i was watching bill moyers interview joseph campbell tonight and part of the discussion was about (i think james joyce's) view on the ways we interact with art. there was pornography or the basest need to obtain the art object, didacticism, which campbell explained as social criticism, and then there was the eternal and the sublime (reasons for a and b?). i thought it might be interesting to start a thread about it, but apropos bimble's long post upthread i thought i would post it here. and yeah, maybe those are the starting points for any serious criticism.

i rarely see folks here claiming that they are indisputably correct on some aesthetic judgment. it seems more like a trivia contest with the winner being who has the best knowledge or like a struggle/attempt to articulate minutiae that as whole describe what makes a piece of music so compelling (the smaller the minutiae get, the harder you have to work, and the possibilities are infinite however banal). after that it's about how the minutiae are argued which can be off-putting, but also very entertaining.

I am very interested in what Joyce or whoever it was had to say on the nature of art. Especially if it was Joyce.

i rarely see folks here claiming that they are indisputably correct on some aesthetic judgment.

well, not exactly, but being "correct" is a kind of artificial stronghold when you're arguing about an opinion, right? You almost have to take that extra-strong "opinion" to get anywhere in the "conversation."

i just hunted around a bit and it was definitely joyce. (see the wikipedia page on joseph campbell if you are interested. i didn't know his involvement with joyce ran so deep.) anyway, it was the 6th dvd in the power of myth series.

xpost, yup.

maybe what ilx needs is a feature to turn polls on or off.

tricky, what we're kind of missing is that the aesthetic jostling, fwiw, is such a small part of why some (I) came and stayed here and it used to be a smaller part of what was here**;
what i dug most besides random lols was the space carved out for Serious 'music as culture' conversations that, yeah, intersected/was buttressed by all the touchstones of 'pure' musical criticism but also buckles down and wrestles with identity and isms and artistic cognition etc.
I don't know exactly why that kind of discussion has waned**, but i hope it's not cos people are afraid of some 'regular' taking potshots, it's really not that serious(if anything it's less serious since professional reputation doesn't come into play like it does for some others, presumably). It's weird, i'm not interested in writing(extensively) for the EXACT same reasons as bimble but i respect the impulse in others and indeed, enjoy the product to a point, don't really know where you were going with that(bimble-he or she?).

***john d disclaimer x2 - I'm not passing judgements on any period of ilx, believe me I don't feel fealty to message boards or their contingents or eras like, at all(it's part of 'my thing'). i mean, lolcats and fake tuomas is filling the spiritual void(x1000000) I might have felt from a dearth of momus threads.

Or a separate ILP board?

No, not at all. I've learned stuff from poll threads (if not from the polls themselves), when I've waded through all that "oh no, this poll needs X in it" and "I wonder who'll win" shite. I just don't think they stimulate discussion as well as, y'know, actually just talking about stuff rather than scientificising it.

I realise I add little, being a lurker an' that. My opinion probably doesn't count. I don't post because I don't feel I'd add anything. I read ILM like I read the music press - I don't feel the need to contribute to that either. I post the occasional comment, but I don't think my words make a difference so I choose not to add them all over the place. That's my prerogative.

xpost - I Love Polls would be the worst board ever!

Thanks to everyone for pointing out their favorite releases so far! As someone alluded to earlier, it's not so much people not discussing everything at some point or another as much as it's hard to filter it all through the various threads (and now polls).

Bring back Marissa.

-- Dom Passantino, Thursday, May 31, 2007 6:09 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

I wish I had the time and inclination to address this thread properly from J0hn D's three-para-post down; I shall say that I agree with him, by-and-large, and also that I tend to avoid poll threads unless it's a band/artist I really, really, really like.

The increased business of ILM has made posts shorter; I often find myself anxiously trying to finish a response as fast as possible to avoid dreaded x-posts, for instance.

I also think Bimble has some issues regarding lack of self-confidence to get over having read his PRETENDING post; if no one pretended or supposed or asserted, no one would ever make progress. Doign those things doens't make you a sociopath.

polls are accounting for what looks like a third of threads in New Answers. so there's still plenty of room for non-poll-orientated discussion or indeed idle list-making and non-poll based ranking.