New Order: Classic Or Near-Miss?

Are you dead wrong? Yes!

No, you're not. Seriously. I don't have any problem with the clumsy electronics; their rock moments are often as clumsy! That's what makes them so endearing to me: their short attention spans kept them from truly mastering disco and post-punk. Hell, Bernard Sumner isn't even a "proper" vocalist. He's plenty embarrassing on a lot of productions, but when it works on stuff like "Temptation" (in any form), "Age of Consent," "Lonesome Tonight," and two dozen others his Everyman charm is kinda revelatory. They got it exactly right exactly once Technique. I mean, he's the only guy fronting a band that played electro-disco who can barely hold a tune -- who'll grunt and screech to get himself out of singing a bar beyond his range.

New Order are the only band about whom it can be said that their humanity was a splendid means of covering an unfathomable reserve. They're so obvious cuz they're holding something back.

(and expect several thousand posts by sunrise)

*exactly right exactly once: Technique.

in my opinion their production is as much part of what makes them what they are as their songs. god knows i really wouldn't want them to have indulged that much more in the excesses of 80s production - any percieved deficiencies in their production has probably done more to give the tracks a timeless edge. the parts of their catalogue that will probably end up sounding most dated would be the last two albums.

Yeah. Their self-productions were as much attempts to distance themselves of the era's excesses as Saville sleeves and absence of lyric and instrumental crecits.

Bernard was also strongly drawn to freestyle/hi-nrg etc which happily used those "cheesy" sounds - they make perfect sense to me.

I think we might have another thread on New Order.

I'm just trying to figure out if Naive Teen Idol is criticizing Martin Hannett or not.

i doubt it, based on the tracks he's referring to

I'm just trying to figure out if Naive Teen Idol is criticizing Martin Hannett or not.

He's not.

New Order:Sublime or Ridiculous?

i am drunk and listening to new order singles

I am asking something different

No one should complain about thread repeats when question is this thoughtful.

true, that was teasing more than complaining. plus, that second link is really really funny.

Naive Teen Idol is dead to me.

Seriously though, I'd hate New Order if they sounded like Scritti.

I find the production raw and exhilirating and human in a way more overly produced stuff isn't, and therefore doesn't reach me as deeply.

But I also don't think it's bad production, I think they new what they were doing and new where not to overdo it. Look at the goofy use of Emulator samples on both Perfect Kiss (the Frogs) and the sheep or whatever the hell that is at the end of Fine Time. Same thing with the orchestra hits. Its a kind of modernism, using the tools the way they were built (in addition to pushing the occasional limits and doing something original). I think on Technique, if anything the influence coming from Chicago just leads them to keep some of the elements raw enough.

Ok, let's not get crazy, Dan. It's not like I said, "If only New Order had productions that sounded more like, say, Berlin..." Even the most ardent fan probably would admit there are times that NO's production crosses over from "raw and exhilarating" to "thin and underwhelming" -- thus, the endlessly regurgitated arguments about which mix of Temptation people prefer, whether Robie improved or ruined tracks, discussions of bongo breakdowns, etc.

But yes, point taken: when Barney fails to hit the notes on, say, "Perfect Kiss," he imbues the song with a vulnerability and humanity that, say, Green Gartside never could have (esp. with those lyrics).

Dan, I hear what you're saying re. Emulator samples and so forth. A better comparison may be Thomas Leer -- on "Private Plane," there's a very homespun, DIY feeling but by Scale of Ten he's converted that sound into a more blue-eyed synthpop sound that manages to stay true, somehow, to who he was.

A better comparison than Scritti, that is...

If Michael Jackson was in New Order, would Ian Curtis still be alive?

to be honest, alfred says pretty much anything i might have wanted to say, and does it all by the second post. huge respect.

their perfection lies in their imperfections.

It's all about Hooky though, really.

I mean, the synths can be heartbreakingly pretty, the guitar does its scratchy job, Barney's vague lyrics are endearing, but it's those deep soul-mining basslines that do the business.

There are two main pleasures in listening to New Order. The bits where you are breathlessly anticipating the bass to return, and the bits when Hooky eventually delivers.

And deliver he does.

i guess you don't like "republic" very much, then?

serious question!

Actually I've never heard it, grimly! I stopped following them after "Technique" (I had a bit of a pause in listening to ANY music about that time).

I do think a very large proportion of the emotional power of NO is carried within Hooky's bass though. There's a haunting solemnity in his playing that is at odds with his meat-and-two-veg public persona.

Actually I've never heard it

ach, you have to rectify that. it's an odd album -- stands apart from everything that preceded it, and is very much of its time -- but touched with wonder throughout.

hooky is, of course, an enormously emotional character; the melodies and sounds he produces fit well with that, i feel.

What do you like so much about 'Republic'? I know all of it by heart since it was the first NO album which I bought on release, but I think if I discovered it now, I wouldnt spin it more than 3-4 times.

okay, let's set "regret" aside, 'cos that's too obvious ... i dunno, i just feel that, beneath the high-gloss surface, there's this collection of majestic, stately songs. whereas parts of "get ready" sounded like a band jamming and having "fun" (which i believe it was), "republic" sounds like a band falling apart spectacularly (which i believe they were). it's uncomfortable, in parts: this sense that they're trying to keep it together, to stand proud, to make this enormously complex and sophisticated record while absolutely everything around them goes to shit.

New Order are the only band where my critical faculties go completely out the window. I just cannot hear anything wrong with anything they do. Therefore I can only say CLASSIC and I can't imagine anyone producing them to make them more classic.

it's uncomfortable, in parts: this sense that they're trying to keep it together, to stand proud, to make this enormously complex and sophisticated record while absolutely everything around them goes to shit.
-- grimly fiendish, Friday, October 26, 2007 4:35 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark Link

OTM; and that's why, despite its faults, it's a really great record!

I don't think New Order became a band that could release coherent, enjoyable albums until Technique. They came close several times (and acheived it once with Movement) but usually had something that completely marred my enjoyment of the album and ultimately made me reject the whole thing as a unit; I would and still do treasure individual songs but not the albums as wholes.

From Technique onwards, the songs they put together on their albums played off of each other much better; perhaps it was more aural/lyrical thematic cohesion and perhaps it was the band locking into a groove after nearly a decade of playing together, but after that point I can't find a point of failure on any of the subsequent albums that turns me off to the entire thing.

hmmm. i'd agree that movement sounds like a coherent whole. but PCL and brotherhood ... well, i've always loved the way there are two very distinct sounds/feels/themes to each album (lazily: proto-blue-mondays/heart-stopping balladry on the former, and guitars/dance on the latter). and low-life (which i listened to this morning on the way to work) ... well, i still don't think it's as good as many people do, but it works as a unit for me.

basically: i can see where you're coming from, but for me that only makes me love the albums more!

i need to listen to get ready again ... as for WFTSC, that's the one i really differentiate (as i do with so many average albums by so many bands) into hewn-from-stone ker-lassix (krafty, the title track, working overtime [1], maybe even the first track) and sorta average stuff. as i've said before: if it wasn't a new order album, i'd cut it a lot more slack :)

[1] yes, really. fucking great song.

Ok, having continued to dig in this week whilst away from ILM...

My first thought is that Technique is hella strong with production that mitigates much of my above points. There are still Fairlight hits and all, but all in all, that sort of thing is much more integrated here, without having abandoned the shaggy qualities that create that unique tension of theirs. I actually find "Fine Time" kind of an odd opener -- it's probably the least melodic thing on the record, though kind of a crazy potpourri of influences and beats. For just about every other track, the songwriting is almost undeniably top notch. "Run" (the Mellotron in the coda!), "All the Way," "Vanishing Point" and "Dream Attack" are pretty brilliant, chock full of Peter Hook-ness and melodic turns and twists. Safe to say, I'm a fan.

ALL THAT SAID...

I still think there's stuff--some of, say, Substance--that isn't as well produced as other things they've done. I don't dispute that their lack of slickness is part of their charm and appeal -- or even a central component of it. And if you want to argue that for them to attain such moments of grandeur, they had to be willing to experiment and fail, fine. But none of that necessarily means all of their productions were created equal.

Opening with Fine Time, and having the multi-colored cover shot, was New Order's way of saying "hey house music/acid/madchester/raves/whatever, we OWN". It may be the least melodic, but it's the best club track on there.

Well, for me NO are at their best when they're at their best i.e. the perfect kiss, thieves like us, blue monday, ultraviolence etc.

And the key thing for me is that Hooky tends to work against the rest of the band. For me he is a disruptive presence, the "ghost in the machine".

The slicker the rest of the band collectively sound, the more profoundly Hooky cuts through it, recalling an ancient, solemn past.

I reiterate this is my OWN personal interpretation - I may be way off course compared to other NO fans, but it feels "true" to me.

Hooky talked about this when I interviewed him last week. How Bernard and Stephen were pushing more towards dance music and he was keeping the punk spirit alive and in that give and take, you get something special.

ach, hooky's a great interviewee but he will give you a different story every time.

at their best i.e. the perfect kiss, thieves like us, blue monday, ultraviolence etc

tick, tick, tick ... really?

What'd you interview him for, Dan?

http://www.viva-radio.com/control

There's going to be 7 playlists in total up through november. I was going to spam about it all after they all went up, but they've been going up one at a time over the last week, and Viva did a press release about it.

I did two playlists of Joy Division and early New Order, the hits, rarities, live stuff, demos, sessions etc, 1 playlist of" influences, peers and followers", another playlist of more of their brethren, which is a reconfiguring of an older viva playlist I had done called Nightshift, and a final playlist of all Factory records stuff which I'll do soon as I get around to ripping some more records.

In addition to all that, there are 2 playlists of interviews, each containing 2 interviews each. Keep in mind I'm no journalist or host or whatever, just a humble Joy Division/New Order fan who had the chance to talk to some people about a subject close to my heart, and what we lose in my grace, we gain in what I think were some decent insights on the part of the interviewees, who were Peter Hook, Jon Savage, Simon Reynolds and Matthew Higgs (curator of the White Columns gallery in NYC who hung out in Joy Division's rehearsal studio when he was 14).

Basically I've been living/eating/breathing Joy Division for the last few weeks! I'll post about all of this to the Control thread at some point soon as well.

All that and you don't interview me, I tell ya.

Did you include their one-off version of Sparks' "When I'm With You" from an Italian show in 82?

Basically I've been living/eating/breathing Joy Division for the last few weeks!

YESSS!!! The mania has only begun!!!!!!!!!!!!!

actually it began with the purchase of a cassette of New Order's Substance in 1988.

Never heard the Sparks cover.

I've got it buried around somewhere, good enough sound quality but very ragged, to say the least.

New single

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6E6ugW7TOo&ab_channel=neworder

it's apparently a music complete outtake

I am not particularly into this even a little bit

Stole the words right out of my, uh, fingers. I had to stop it halfway through.

I listened all the way through because I am Poster Boy #1 for finding tons to enjoy in latter-era careers but this is mostly a wet fart to me.

For the first minute or so, before the vocals came in, I was semi-reminded of Perfume and idly wondered if this was what it would sound like if New Order worked with Yasutaka Nakata. But then the placeholder vocals (and placeholder lyrics) did come in, and I was fully reminded that I don't care about anything New Order have done post-1989. Also that he might be a gaping asshole, but without Peter Hook's bass sound they're just... nothing.

More interested in the mixes and the instrumental. Bernard really shouldn’t sing or write lyrics anymore.

Music Complete is a terrific album I didn't think was possible without Hook, whom I no longer miss.

I saw them play in January -- fine, solid. I don't wanna deal with them anymore, though.

dud

I don't wanna deal with them anymore, though.

I'm in total agreement. I never thought I'd get to that point with one of my favorite bands of all time (see also: Pixies, Public Enemy, etc.) where they were still doing new stuff but I have absolutely no interest in hearing it.

I liked "Music Complete" just fine, like the last couple of (solid!) OMD albums. But "Sirens" call I loved, which holds its successor to a higher standard.

Not really doing a lot for me this one. Kind of reminds me of Here To Stay from the 24 Hour Party People soundtrack but at least that managed a fairly memorable chorus.

Man you people are harsh confide I thought Music Complete had a positive reception here. Cancel culture has gone too far!

Confide= Considering

Music Complete is a good album and this song sounds like a really boring album track that would have been buried somewhere in the middle of it had it made it onto the album.

Counterpoint - this is enjoyable! Sounds like Electronic.

Yeah, Music Complete is a good album if you take ignore the first single and the Iggy track. This sounds like an obvious leftover in the same way that Lost Sirens sounded like a bunch of leftovers that never needed to see the light of day.

it's a good Electronic song

Haven't listened to it yet but the mere title is off-putting (visions of Barney admonishing us to be a rebel, yeah-YEAH!). You guys are harsh. I've enjoyed all of their post-reformation albums (but I know theres disagreement here on this). I think this is an old outtake they recorded for fun remotely during lockdown so I wouldnt bury them on the basis of that.

you know how i know they're past their expiration date? i can't tell if their "new" music is a solid update of their classic sound, or absolute garbage. it could literally be either and i wouldn't be able to tell the difference at this point.

I like this, sounds like a 'Raise the Pressure' album track.

great stuff, it definitely has a strong first electronic album vibe. very laid down and kind of sunny. but i can understand that it is released at the end of summer.

as the link above does not work around here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f6E6ugW7TOo

There were a "wide range of opinions" on ilx regarding "Music Complete", let's say...

for the most part it left me cold, they need to bury the hatchet and get hooky back for an album

nah, they just need to do an entire album along the lines of "Unlearn This Hatred" and "Singularity"

I didn't miss Hook at all, even on the guitar tracks like "Academic."

To their credit, unlike many act who record as an excuse to tour, they still play at least three songs from MC.

(this is my hobby horse) but it wouldn’t hurt for them to go a bit lo-fi maybe

Or just not totally “state of the art”, idk

needs more stacked harmonies and bigger drum programming they should go full kylie imo

i like this ftr

I hated this when I first started listening to it and shut it off. Then I listened to the whole thing later in the night and it's better than I thought, but it's entirely too long; the edit version is better. there really isn't any bass in this at all though and yeah, it absolutely sounds like Electronic or Bad Lieutenant as a result

I don't miss Hooky at all. He's a giant asshole and I hope he continues to degrade himself with his cover band desperation tours. I expect to see his name on casino advertisements just below the buffet listing. I think Music Complete was great and didn't suffer for hot having Hooky on it at all. Just consider what he's done on his own. What Do You Want From Me is just about the only song he's been involved with that even touches New Order's stuff, and most of that is because he found a guy who sounds just like Bernard to sing on those Monaco albums. My issue with this new song is the lyrics. I totally agree they should go lo-fi a bit, get back to that raw analog sequencer / synth writing and ditch the computers for a bit. Let Gillian take a turn on the microphone, put 2 instrumentals on the album. Keep Bernard away from the microphone as much as possible. His voice is shot, his capacity to write lyrics has gone from minuscule to non-existant. Still my favorite band by a mile though.

none of them are any great shakes on their own, so that's hardly an argument

I don't really care about hooky being here or not, I'd just like to hear an instrument called 'bass'

does he really write those lyrics or are they coming from a computer? their blandness and daftness indeed is still reaching new unbelievable highs but if you don't listen to them they sound ok in a brian eno kind of way, the mix of the vowels and the consonants and the intonation is fine. they are just hollow inside but who cares. i still like bernard's voice, he has conserved it quite well. his way of singing is fine too. to me new order is still new order without the bass but it wouldn't be new order without his voice.

What was the last album they were all playing on? Republic? Siren's Call was missing Gilbert, right?

Define "all."

The remaining three played on WFTSC with their new members. Gillian played but didn't tour on Get Ready.

I believe Phil has been in New Order longer than Hooky was now.

"All" being the classic four members writing and recording so in this instance I guess Get Ready is the answer?

Phil and Hooky should form a Marionaco supergroup

music complete was their best album since technique but that's not really saying much. the songs were decent for the most part (except the iggy pop one) but the track lengths were really bloated. most tracks should have been 3-5 minutes not 5-7 minutes. of course they released a special edition where all the tracks are like 8 minutes so lol

I do not agree, MC is so bland I struggle to remember any of it, but several from Get Ready and WFTSC are top 20 New Order for me.