Is singing out of tune a problem?

A colleague remarked that she couldn't handle the way Nick Cave sings out of tune. Does he? Also, are there some circumstances in which singing out of tune either doesn't matter, or even enhances a song?

Mark E Smith

Can be. Can not be. Sorry if that's not very decisive.

There are tons of plug-ins that correct the problem, AutoTune, Melodyne, etc.

But those bring into question of whether or not technology makes music too perfect, and takes the humanistic qualities out of a performance.

From an engineering standpoint, I prefer to work with the take instead of "fixing" it... but I'm sure a lot of people will dispute otherwise.

From a consumer standpoint (engineering aside as much as possible), it makes things dynamic and interesting to me.

Is painting outside the lines bad?

there is no "in tune" except for for assholes

"singing" "out" of "tune"

Not with the aid of the almighty AUTOTUNE!!!

tonedeafness (e.g. david berman singing live) is really hard for me to listen to. but the occasional bum note isn't so bad.

I do find it annoying (sort of learn to accept it with some people, like Ray Davies and Damon Albarn), but it may of course be seen as a kind of style and personality.

If weak/out-of-tune vocals impede the full realization of an otherwise fantastic melodic structure (i.e. certain Stone Roses & Delgados tracks), it can be particularly maddening. Otherwise, if it suits the aesthetic, who cares?

I have no problems with weak vocals (like Stone Roses). Although ideally they would need some studio help not to be drowned by the backing instruments.

The thing about a lot of the punk singers, e.g. lydon, MES, Devoto, et al,
is they can hit the notes if they want to, but often prefer to challenge you. the voice is the personality.
Even people with weaker voices (martin bramah, vic godard, ian brown) can get away with being off-key - on
record at least - if the personality is there.
people used to complain the singer was 'out of tune' if they sang with a non-US accent, but that's less
of an issue these days.
At the other end of the scale are the beautifiul, rich soul voices like Terry Callier, Al Green. Not bland
voices, they also mean it, maaaan.
Then there are the technical singers, the craig david warblers; in tune, but a total fucking row.

people used to complain the singer was 'out of tune' if they sang with a non-US accent, but that's less of an issue these days.

Uh, what?

"Submission" a case in point: Lydon hits the right note every time there is one to hit.

Most of the other songs do not have 'markable' notes, but similarly in "Holidays in the sun" if someone was to sing that, you'd tell if they were 'out-of-tune' or just plain "hitting the wrong notes"

I used to think Ian Curtis was out of tune, nowadays I can't remember why...

used to think Ian Curtis was out of tune, nowadays I can't remember why...

― Mark G, Thursday, 25 September 2008 11:56 (1 minute ago)

he had a deep, quavering sort of tone sometimes, esp on the slower stuff like atmosphere

Incredible String Band to thread

Singing out of tune doesn't really bother me unless it's part of a multipart harmony that's clearly not supposed to be cringeworthy. Especially on long held notes. Stars Like Fleas played a show here the other day, and the out-of-tuneness repeatedly ruined any momentum they ever managed to build up.

I think it depends to some extent on whether the listener is a classically trained musician. I once dated a vocal major who found blue notes physically painful to endure...

Slightly flat singing as in Cave is part of the aesthetic. But there must have been a time not too long ago when delta blues was heard as montsterous.

Singing out of tune can be great, it can also be horrible, there's no real formula.

example of where it's great: Biz Markie 'Just A Friend'

example of where it's terrible: ALL TIMES WHEN DIDDY TRIED IT

used to think Ian Curtis was out of tune, nowadays I can't remember why...

― Mark G, Thursday, 25 September 2008 11:56 (1 minute ago)

he had a deep, quavering sort of tone sometimes, esp on the slower stuff like atmosphere

― Dr X O'Skeleton, Thursday, 25 September 2008 11:01 (5 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, that first note of Atmo might have been why...

[Insert lyrics to "Desafinado" here]

Mamas AND the Papas

I have no problem with this - in a way it's a lot more affecting to me. I mean, I can't sing so therefore I relate to singers that can't sing either. It's certainly refreshing compared to the standard Pop Idol/...Got Talent method of singing that so many amateurs force themselves into because of notions of professionalism.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not expecting everyone to be Jandek but just asking for ppl to sing 'naturally' whatever that means.

Wasn't there some fuss about Lumidee's singing voice back a few years ago - it being off key or something?

To quote the master of tuneless caterwauling:

You've got one to take out
You know what I'm talking about!
I don't sing I just shout
All on one note.
Sing, sing, sing, sing

It's certainly refreshing compared to the standard Pop Idol/...Got Talent method of singing that so many amateurs force themselves into because of notions of professionalism.

What I find weird about Pop Idol/X factor* etc is that you sometimes get someone singing a whole piece slightly off the track, so the relative pitch of their part is fine, but the whole thing is out of tune with the backing. This sounds HORRIBLE, but the judges never seem to pick it up. I suppose it's just bad monitoring or something, but it just adds to the total weird vibe.

* In my limited experience of it.

Well, the judges probably don't get the backing as loud as the viewers do.

Wasn't there some fuss about Lumidee's singing voice back a few years ago - it being off key or something?

'Never Leave You' was basically a mash-up so the vocal key was not originally intended for that backing track. dunno about her other singles.

And it sounds weirdly great. I didn't know that - I thought she was just singing off-key over Diwali.

It's more about phrasing and rhythm, for me. Far better for a singer to hit the wrong note at the right time than the right note at the wrong time.

Singing out of tune can be great, it can also be horrible, there's no real formula.

Yes.

To elaborate on the "sometimes" answer, I think it depends on the material. There's a lot of pitch wavering in like a Wolf Parade song or something, but it makes sense there and isn't distracting. In a Fleet Foxes song it's different. I like them both. Although I'm probably a little biased in favor of tuneful singing.

Mamas AND the Papas
OTM. They sound OK on the melancholy minor key hits, but some of those major chord, multi-section 4-part harmony extravaganzas are awful. But now I'm wondering if they are in fact technically out of tune or just singing annoying notes.

To answer some of the original post, I'm pretty sure there are plenty of songs with Nick Cave singing out of tune. Oh Deana in particular seems to benefit from it imo. (And of course just about everything by the Birthday Party...)

But yeah, it seems sort of case by case to me, who can pull it off and who can't--needs the right context, singer needs some kind of bravado/character/skillz (whatever it is I mean by 'skillz') to pull it off, (who is listening), they way the music is recorded/mixed, etc. I tend to like singers who stretch the limitations of their voices a bit and. Um.

Hold on, I was getting to some point.

Maybe someone who is not about to fall asleep could scan my mind and articulate this better before I trail off into some sort of god knows what...yeah sleep...

I think a lot of people who say x sings out of tune actually mean "I don't like this". People are quick to say whatever sounds odd or they don't immediately like is somehow musically incorrect when this is usually not true.

well my parents were just watching the X-Factor on tv and although they hit every note, the singing is just so anodyne, soulless and lacking in personality

whereas someone like Jim Thirlwell is a thrilling singer

i don't hear the mamas & papas as singing out of tune - john was maybe a bit shaky but otherwise?????

incredible string band is a good example of music being ruined by bad singing for me. shirley collins used to sound really off to my ears at first but now i dig her. less than perfect singing sounds ok in trad folk stuff, not so good the slicker and poppier you get

I think a lot of people who say x sings out of tune actually mean "I don't like this". People are quick to say whatever sounds odd or they don't immediately like is somehow musically incorrect when this is usually not true.

OTM. I've heard so many people say that Jeff Mangum from Neutral Milk Hotel never sings in tune, when the truth is much closer to the opposite. Not liking his voice/delivery is one thing, but that doesn't mean he's out of tune.

I was just listening to Casiotone for the Painfully Alone and thinking about this question. I think bad singing can work when there's something going on to replace the tunefulness. Like instead of being in tune it's kind of speak-singy and the focus is on the lyrics or the rhythm, or instead of being in tune it's all ragged and believably emotional and the focus is on that. But if it sounds like it should be sung well and the listener's focus is on the tune but the singing is bad, that's no fun.

http://soundclick.com/share.cfm?id=5306452

Oh man that chorus is something else, except the last time thru she nails it...?

Lord deliver us from Children's Christian Country music

she sounds "ok" in the verses too, and her other songs sound pretty normal. maybe the first two choruses were in a different key on the original backing track, but the engineer swapped in a different backing track without re-recording the vocal. but if it was a studio fuckup, then why was the singer still promoting the song seven years later? and did she really believe it was "#1 in the Children's Charts at mp3.com for 9 months" because it was a nice, inspiring song for Christian children?

the choruses sound like it's a different person singing? a younger person. maybe going for some naive childlike singing but not enough of the childlike and way too much of the naive.

i'm really tempted to listen to some of the music by the soundclick users who are fans of her soundclick profile but it's 6am and i feel i could get in too deep v quickly.

thought this was going to be a Laurel Halo thread

I dunno if Halo sings out of tune. Her voice sounds strange on Quarantine, but I think that's more down to the fact she didn't put them through the same delay/reverb processes you normally hear on records. You'd be surprised at how much these processes make dry singing sound really great.

I was just being sassy

ties in nicely with nico

Dunno how much Autotune was used back in 2000, but the singer in that Christian song sounds like they set the Autotune wrong for the chorus

cliff richard?

I mean, in freaking out with joy over on the MATANGI thread so obv the answer to the thread question is "it depends"