A Caravan for a Pack of Angry Cannibals: Duke Ellington Vs. Raymond Scott

the list of people who I would vote for over Duke Ellington on anything is about three entries long, and I'm wrong on all three counts.

I suspect many if not most will feel as you do, John. Then again, I also suspect there are a lot here who have never heard Ellington but have heard Scott!

Don't want to slam Josh or Raymond Scott but um... Ellington is so much more massive in every way. I can't quite come up with an analogy... Brian Eno vs. Jean-Jacques Perrey, maybe.

Brian Eno vs. Jean-Jacques Perrey, maybe.

which one is Ellington? (seriously)

what weird planet would someone live on where you hear Raymond Scott and not Duke Ellington?

Like where you have a TV that only played Ren And Stimpy, but not the Simpsons or The OC?

hahaha Whiney OTM

Just seems to me that Eno's influence is vast, whereas Perrey is more isolated.

damn ellington by miles, and i love raymond scott but come on

I like Ellington more than Miles!

x-post The question was not whether one has heard Ellington. The question is how many have heard Ellington and not known it was him? I mean, Scott has been marketed to hipsters for a while now. Ellington, not so much.

Anyway, I didn't think of this as a real contest, per se, just a comparison of two geniuses. Different geniuses, but geniuses all the same.

That said, for the sake of argument (and not that there's much argument), just what makes Ellington "more massive in every way?" I'd love to be schooled, since I've never spent that much intensive time with him. I was just listening to the "The Duke" box and the comparison randomly struck me, is all. It'd be nice if this mutated into a hypothetical "why Ellington is better for someone who has only heard Scott" thread.

Ellington is arguably the first person to compose for recording. Earlier pop music records were an extension of live performance or sheet music. Ellington would compose directly for the constraints of the running time of a 78, but also for specific sounds that he knew his band members could come up with- like Bubber Miley's plunged wah-wah trombone in "The Moochie". Even though you couldn't really put that into notation, he knew it wouldn't be lost. So he's one of the original people who creates music with textures in mind, the kind that can't be put into musical notation. And that's just considering him in a pop context.

I got a mix of Duke's stuff that is totally hipster-marketable.

what does "hipster-marketable" mean? like comps on hip reissue labels?

Thanks, Bendy!

hipster
...his weird R'n'B stuff is still hip. But especially his later long-form suites. I think that stuff makes sense alongside post-rock stuff. "Ad Lib on Nippon",

I think I'll give *Jazz Party* a spin.

I do think that there is something interesting about this question, though, in that Ellington has not been subject the same kind of rediscovery (pretty much b/c he never left.) For much of his history, he was regarded as one of the most important figures in 20th cent. music, and he's still thought of that way, as he should be. So I wonder if he has made the same kind of recent inroads among young and curious music obsessives as someone like Raymond Scott. If you are curious about electronic music in the last 20 years, you are bound to come across Scott's name. Whereas with Ellington, you're more likely to be looking for jazz specifically, which a lot of people never do.

Totally. I'm a B-level jazz fan, but and A-level Ellingtonista. Some of my favorite moments make the hardcore jazzbos cringe. Ellington himself thought of jazz as too constraining a label.

Ellington is dope as hell, but having just knowingly heard Scott's stuff he almost instantly became one of my favorite musicians. His electronic stuff is cool, but I mainly dig the jazz shit which is so wildly awesome.

Pipecock sounding like the jazz version of dance fan dilettantes he hates right now

I love Scott, but this is silly. Ellington v. Mingus might be interesting - progenitor and pupil, as it were.

Raymond Scott is nice and all but this is ridiculous - Duke's one of the biggest figures of 20th century music, totally unfuckwithable. There is a great album from the mid-60s that I use to have that was loaded with vibraphone madness, wish I could remember which one it was that was a personal favorite...

Honestly, I never thought of it as a serious match. Pretty impulsive. But again, it does open the door for a Ellington discussion to help (admitted) neophytes like myself. Bendy is on the right track. If someone asked me about Ellington, what else should I say beyond "one of the biggest figures of 20th century music, totally unfuckwithable?" He had a long, long career, and accomplished a lot during it, the catalog is imposing, so ... what? I can talk Mingus, and Miles, and Ornette, and Coltrane, et al., but for such a towering figure Ellington has always been a blind spot for me. Not surprisingly, Wikipedia is of little help, and only makes a big case for him as a sort of ambassador, a la Leonard Bernstein. Which is nothing to sniff at, but still too general for my purposes.

(This is not to denigrate Scott, btw, whom I do consider a genius. His jazz combo stuff is great, his electronic stuff is great, his ensemble/cartoon compositions are wildly original - all adds up to more than "nice and all," all things considered, no?)

There's a pretty great Don Byron album, Bug Music where his group plays Scott right next to Ellington, so you're in good company in seeing the comparison. The amazing thing about Ellington is that, as vast as his discog is, it's stunningly consistent. I say bookend it. Get a comp of his major sides from the 20s, (I really like the versions on the Bluebird disc Early Ellington) and one of his last, The Afro-Eurasian Eclipse. Then work forwards and backwards from those.

Scott is of course "cooler" (by current standards)

f that.

yeah i don't get that (like the "hipster-marketable" above) -- is it because of Scott's electronic music that he's "cooler"? Because he's less well-known?

it does open the door for a Ellington discussion to help (admitted) neophytes like myself.

Duke Ellington

There are at least a half dozen other threads in re: Ellington.

the only bad part about duke is he has so many damn albums i never know where to start! i like the couple i bought at random, have no idea if they are "the right albums"

http://images.uulyrics.com/cover/d/duke-ellington/album-never-no-lament-the-blanton-webster-band.jpg
i mean, there are plenty of "right albums" but this is the set that will kick your ass.

x-post I'd suggest that he's "hipster-marketable" only because it's easier to define (or compile) what makes him great and/or unique, both via his manic cartoon music and his electronic stuff. I mean, how many times has someone recommended "Soothing Sounds for Babies" to new parents on ILM, when I'm sure lots of Ellington would do just as well? I mean, I imagine lots of folks would go all snobby is someone told them to listen to, say, Bowie - duh! - but tell them to pick up someone slightly more obscure, like Scott Walker, and it might be a different story. (Dunno if the analogy holds).

Bendy, thanks for reminding me about "Bug Music" (the last Byron disc I ever bought, but which I forgot about all the same). Curiously, just saw this in Wikipedia, re: Scott's original Quintette:

"They made their first recordings in New York on February 20, 1937, for the Master Records label, owned by music publisher/impresario Irving Mills (who was also Duke Ellington's manager)."

Small world!

(And thanks for reminding me of the search function. Sometimes backwards is forward ...)

Speaking as a (relatively) new parent who was happy to receive a gift of Soothing Sounds for Babies, it is actually kind of irritating to listen to all the way through.

It's not for you! ;)

I recommend this

(lolz baby didn't like it either! baby prefers Sun Ra)

Ellington Uptown in Hi Fi was the lullaby LP for junior in my house.

i want to listen to the new orleans suite again, after hearing wynton & lincoln center play their version over the weekend.

I uploaded my favorite comp of early Duke records, "Jubilee Stomp" on some thread a month or so ago. That's my go-to for an introduction.

"Pipecock sounding like the jazz version of dance fan dilettantes he hates right now

― autogucci cru (deej)"

eh, i doubt it. for example, i like Kevin Saunderson but if you ask if i prefer him or Basic Channel, there's no doubt or question in my mind that BC win that shit. this instance is not entirely dissimilar.

thread needs more youtube.

Even though I voted for Duke, this might be my favorite youtube ever.

oh man, that is sublime

"Powerhouse, Vol. 1: The Raymond Scott Project" >>>> "Reckless Nights and Turkish Twilights"... mostly the same material, the former has slightly lesser fidelity but the performances are way crazier

I can't vote for this, because I have listened to so much more Raymond Scott than Ellington. I've seen tons of amazing films of Ellington from the 30's & 40's and read his articles & commentaries. But haven't cracked down on the music yet. A tip of the hat to anyone posting recommendations on this thread.

Second the "Never No Lament" recommendation above. Those Blanton-Webster recordings, from the pop-vocals like "Dixie Roadside Diner" to the weirder, atmospheric stuff like "Ko-Ko" (which Raymond Scott certainly had to have heard and internalized) are some of my favorite music ever, in any genre.

but for such a towering figure Ellington has always been a blind spot for me. Not surprisingly, Wikipedia is of little help

So rather than reading about him elsewhere, or looking at the seven prior threads on Ellington, I think I will start a poll...

Here's my failed attempt at a poll, but a decent discussion...

Ellington in the LP era

So rather than reading about him elsewhere, or looking at the seven prior threads on Ellington, I think I will start a poll...

I said it was impulsive, and it didn't occur to me (for whatever reason) to simply search past threads. Or didn't you read this thread? Anyway, a poll doesn't cost anything, right? Doesn't upset the balance of the universe? I wish I had a chance to sit down and absorb all 24 discs in that Centennial Collection, or read any (or many) of the several bios out there. Sometimes something or someone can be so thoroughly documented that it's hard to know where to begin, leading to a sort of paralysis of choice. I've enjoyed most of the responses on here, but by far Bendy has been most helpful in pointing me in the right direction. Thanks again, Bendy!

Josh or curmudgeon: do a nominations thread for Ellington starting points, then poll the 10 or so that get generate the most discussion.
My summation from this and other threads:

The Okey Ellington (for the 20s stuff)
Jubilee Stomp (more 20/30s)
Bragging in Brass (the '38 band)
Blanton Webster Band (the 40s)
Ellington at Newport (50s)
Blues in Orbit (50s right?)
Money Jungle (60 here on out..)
Far East Suite
And His Mother Called Him Bill
Afro-Eurasian Eclipse

Blues In Orbit! Yeah, that is an amazing record. From the 50s on, the recording quality of Ellington records is stellar -- just beautiful tones. Though come to think of it, Money Jungle seems kind of poorly recorded. The big band stuff all sounds incredibly lush and vibrant though.

Money Jungle is like his Exile on Main Street, the muddiness somehow becoming part of the impact.

yeah the murk is nice, though probably not intentional, right? i always wonder who dropped the ball there -- was the engineer just like, "eh, duke ellington, max roach and charles mingus, break out the cheap mics."

this is my most recent Ellington acquisition
http://a367.yahoofs.com/shopping/3086206/simg_t_oi05483op4o1.jpg
Blue Light is great -- a well-chosen comp of moodier 30s material. I got it because I heard "Finesse" on the radio and this seems to be one of the few places you can get it on CD. Lovely, haunting tune ...

There is never enough Ellington love.

Is it possible that he's under-rated? His canonical status and the depth of his discography probably make him seem inaccessible and museum-piecy to a lot of people. Maybe he's also somewhat obscured by the modern association of "jazz" with small-group improvisation. His contributions as a composer, arranger, and recording artist are overwhelming, but they don't fit that model.

Co-sign on the Blanton-Webster box as the best starting point, but you really can't go wrong, as long as you keep in mind that no one recording is representative. Something like the Ken Burns comp might be helpful as a brief overview of his long career.

don't know if "underrated" is the right word, maybe it is. at this point it seems like he's like, I don't know, Beethoven or something. Not the hippest name to drop, but obviously the man when it comes to his kind of music.

> Is it possible that he's under-rated?

Not on ILM. We've looked at Duke thread search results. Now try Basie.

Gotta rep for 'side by side' ellington co-headlining album authorship w/ johnny hodges -- the crazy harry edison coda-solo on 'stompy jones' is one of my favorite trumpet solos ever. great recording quality (its from '58)

"Pipecock sounding like the jazz version of dance fan dilettantes he hates right now

― autogucci cru (deej)"

eh, i doubt it. for example, i like Kevin Saunderson but if you ask if i prefer him or Basic Channel, there's no doubt or question in my mind that BC win that shit. this instance is not entirely dissimilar.

― pipecock, Tuesday, April 28, 2009 2:22 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark

kevin saunderson is really the duke ellington of techno?? come on now

and meanwhile: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/nyregion/30ellington.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

who in fuck is raymond scott??

Ronnie Scott's younger brother.

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