Ornette Pollman - 1959-1960

"Lonely Woman" and "Chronology" vs. "The Face of the Bass" and "Una Muy Bonita." Tough one. But, as on the 1959 Jazz Albums poll, "Lonely Woman" beats all. The Shape of Jazz to Come.

Change of the Century might be my personal favorite, but it's really hard to vote for that over a monument like Free Jazz.

Change of the Century might be my personal favorite, but it's really hard to vote for that over a monument like Free Jazz.

Not if you actually listen to the two albums in question, it's not. For me it's a tossup between The Shape... and This Is..., though Change was the first one I ever heard (the only one I heard before buying the then-brand-new Rhino boxed set).

'shape of jazz to come' seems to me to be the obvious contender, but i really love 'tomorrow.' haven't listened to 'change' enough times to weigh in much on that one. 'free jazz' is monumental and pretty incredible but i pretty much never listen to it

yeah, agree about Free Jazz -- I like it, but it sounds muddled and overlong compared to the perfection of those 4 records that precede it. hard to choose from them though -- probably "Change of the Century" is my fave overall? Have to think about it.

God, what a run. (I voted Shape.)

probably shape of jazz to come, but I also really like this is our music, dig the unrecognisable "embraceable you".

i really need to buy that Rhino box set ... wish it was a little cheaper.

such incredible music. one or two or three of these are usually floating around somewhere in my top 20 albs of all time. i'm going to vote for 'change of a century' just for the mindfuck that is "una muy bonita." but "lonely woman" is like all-time jam forever, love 'this is our music' and 'free jazz' too although i agree about it being a little long and muddled. have not heard "tomorrow is the question!" one thing: these are also some of my favorite album titles ever.

> one thing: these are also some of my favorite album titles ever.

And so MODEST! But cosign anyway.

And yeah, they are all (except Free Jazz) perfect, but Lonely Woman is something more than that.

Countdown to John Poltrane 1959-1920...

Oh man, I didn't even mean to do that, re: Countdown.

these are also some of my favorite album titles ever.

ha me too

Oh, fuck it, I'm taking Free Jazz because that's how I got into Ornette. It's perfect for me!

Not if you actually listen to the two albums in question, it's not.

???

I've probably listened to both hundreds of times over many years.

Shape of Jazz To Come is $.99 over at amazon right now: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00123KEIC/ref=nosim/largeheartedb-20

For me personally, Free Jazz is something I put on more to study it, if that makes sense. It's not really something I listen to for fun, though what an amazing band.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

Gotta be Shape of Jazz to Come, as much for "Focus on Sanity" as for "Lonely Woman."

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

let's not have a piano player, what a good idea

It is a good idea. Interestingly, I've heard claims that Gerry Mulligan did it before Ornette (albeit in a more "inside" kind of way). Based on their discogs, that may not be true -- Something Else!!!! was recorded in early 1958, whereas What Is There To Say wasn't recorded until late 1958. Hardly matters ultimately who was "first" I guess, it was an idea whose time had come. Anyway, I love this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlgKLwhoVgI

yeah that is great. mulligan was doing it pretty early on, wasn't he? at least early 50s.
a friend just sent this to me, kind of groovy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V_P3UStDjN4
interesting that margo guryan (who would go on to make some nice sunshiney pop records) wrote the lyrics.

and the stuff w/ paul bley early on is pretty nice too (though he's not a super heavy presence)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1vGmzMDC_8
funny that this music was seen as revolutionary, it seems so friendly and inviting on this track.

yeah that's kind of a classic reaction to Ornette -- it's out, yet it sounds so "in" somehow. "Lonely Woman" was one of the first jazz tunes I ever heard and I didn't realize it was considered avant garde at that time.

yeah i don't have the musician's perspective on it -- obviously there's a lot that shook up the jazz scene in there. guess it's just been absorbed to the extent that it doesn't quite carry the same shock of the new.
funny to read how musicians like Miles and Mingus reacted to it at first. i think they both came around to it later though.

I think it's not just the "shock of the new" though, and I actually think it's to the credit of Ornette's composing skills that he could write something "new" and "out" that was simultaneously so melodic and charming. If anything, I think maybe musicians had a harder time getting used to it than non-musicians, so trained in hearing jazz played a certain way.

actually might've been wrong about mingus not liking him (maybe I'm thinking of him hating Ayler?) here's what he had to say pretty early on:
You didn’t play anything by Ornette Coleman. I’ll comment on him anyway. Now, I don’t care if he doesn’t like me, but anyway, one night Symphony Sid was playing a whole lot of stuff, and then he put on an Ornette Coleman record.

Now, he is really an old-fashioned alto player. He’s not as modern as Bird. He plays in C and F and G and B Flat only; he does not play in all the keys. Basically, you can hit a pedal point C all the time, and it’ll have some relationship to what he’s playing.

Now aside from the fact that I doubt he can even play a C scale in whole notes—tied whole notes, a couple of bars apiece—in tune, the fact remains that his notes and lines are so fresh. So when Symphony Sid played his record, it made everything else he was playing, even my own record that he played, sound terrible.

I’m not saying everybody’s going to have to play like Coleman. But they’re going to have to stop copying Bird. Nobody can play Bird right yet but him. Now what would Fats Navarro and J.J. have played like if they’d never heard Bird? Or even Dizzy? Would he still play like Roy Eldridge? Anyway, when they put Coleman’s record on, the only record they could have put on behind it would have been Bird.

It doesn’t matter about the key he’s playing in—he’s got a percussional sound, like a cat on a whole lot of bongos. He’s brought a thing in—it’s not new. I won’t say who started it, but whoever started it, people overlooked it. It’s like not having anything to do with what’s around you, and being right in your own world. You can’t put you finger on what he’s doing.

It’s like organized disorganization, or playing wrong right. And it gets to you emotionally, like a drummer. That’s what Coleman means to me.

Now aside from the fact that I doubt he can even play a C scale in whole notes—tied whole notes, a couple of bars apiece—in tune

like dayum

haha, but he likes it!

That is great

whole thing is pretty entertaining
http://mingusmingusmingus.com/mingus/blindfold-test

there's something beautiful about a virtuoso bass player

the person in the group least expecting to impress a listener

I had a dream last night (no doubt inspired by re-reading this thread. And diazepam) That I was on a concorde flght that had to ditch in a lake. And while the airline put us up overnight they arranged for Ornette to play for us. But only my brother and I were interested, so we got a private performance. It was a good dream (apart from the plane crash).