Bootlegs-Easing your guilt since 2002.

Why does liking "Smells Like Booty" imply a liking of "Smells Like Teen Spirit"? And what's wrong with liking girl guitar pop?

It's not girl guitar pop though, it's Smells Like Teen Spirit with Bootylicious over it. That's the problem, I don't see any way how you can like that song and claim not to like Smells Like Teen Spirit.

Or at least if you do like that song you owe alot of your liking for it to Smells Like Teen Spirit. And there's nothing wrong with liking guitar pop but the reaons people are liking this is you have these JADED Nirvana fans getting off on a girl singing over their favourite song.

Because "Smells Like Teen Spirit" the record is more than just some great music which happened to have Kurt singing on top - the lyrics/vocals are totally integral to the song. With Smells Like Booty the mesh of vocal and instrumental rhythms makes a different song. What you're saying really is that if I like "Smells Like Booty" I must like an instrumental version of "Smells Like Teen Spirit", and even that wouldn't follow. Or that if I like "Smells Like [Either]" I must therefore like the same music with four minutes of vomiting and farting noises.

Certain people anyway, that last example is one side of the coin. I also think amusement isn't the same as something genuinely appealing to you.

does the liking of an element of a song necessarily imply liking the whole song itself though ronan?

i don't actually like that many bootlegs myself, although stroke of genius is absolutely brilliant (possibly because it doesn't actually sound like a bootleg at all, perhaps because i wasn't particularly aware of either of the songs beforehand). i haven't heard smells like booty

I don't believe it makes a different song, it creates a different reaction by working with two things you already know and already have ideas about in your head but this isn't a different song. I'm saying that the reaction by Smells Like (for example) is working on people's initial feelings about the two songs.

As an aside - I put the Dreadlock Child mix on Isabel's latest tape - she loved it, and took it as a remix of "Independent Women" rather than a 10cc bootleg, which I think is a good way to think about these things. "It feels much faster" sez she. She didn't like Smells Like Booty cos it sounded "messy".

What's the element on its own then? A new song? Is an accapella a song too? Hardly, if you've heard the original the accapella is not new to you, it automatically makes you think of it. If you haven't heard the original that's one thing but I didn't mention that in my initial post anyway.

And it sounds messy cos it's just two independent things badly stuck together.

I think it depends how often you listen to them Ronan - the initial reaction for me was oh, x + y let's see how that sounds, but for me and a lot of other people the reason isn't to think how clever but to see what new thing gets created. And then once you listen to any given bootleg a lot it becomes absolutely its own thing. At first though it's actually a twin-track reaction - you're reacting to the composite as a song-in-itself but then you're also letting the composite tell you things about the originals you might not have known.

Look Ronan I'm not bothering with this thread if all you're going to do is tell me how and why me and my girlfriend *really* listen to things. It's like someone insisting to you, oh look you only like Futurism because it's early 80s and I don't care what you say.

But then do you accept that these random people going to see Soulwax live or whatever come away thinking it was the greatest thing ever for the reasons I said. I mean are they going along and just hearing a bunch of songs they already liked and maybe pop haters get to think "it's ok to like DC now, it's ironic, haha, and sexy!".

I do believe some bootlegs make a new thing.

Sorry Tom, I don't mean to be like that. I realise it's my opinion that that boot is a bad one. I guess I am suggesting reasons people might like things but not anyone specific, I just think what I say above is quite possible. Sorry if I seemed aggressive about it.

What's the element on its own then?

i don't know, but remixes have made bad songs good (or certainly better) by concentrating on certain 'elements' of a song, and twisting it into a new shape. bootlegs are not dissimilar, the fact that i haven't really liked that many of them is another matter. but, often, i hear a song and think "i like the vox" or "i like the break" or "i like that noise", wish it wasn't in that crappy song though, rmxs offer an escape from that, bootlegs can do the same.

of course, many dj sets submerge a song into a greater whole anyway (i'm thinking someone like jeff mills here) so it becomes irrelevant what is the song and what is the element, because its being buffered around and you can't tell which bits are from where.

Christgau and Simon Reynolds have already made your points for you.

I think they're more likely to be thinking, wow that mix was cool, I'd never like DC on its own. I am sure lots of people like bootlegs in exactly the crazy-man-crazy way you say but I'm equally sure that a lot of people like good music for dreadful reasons - why should I care why somebody else likes something?

FWIW the first time I heard a Soulwax mix (thinking drunkenly it was Steve mixing it himself) I thought wow this is a cool mix, then double-wow I-wasn't-expectng-that. I was dancing and laughing at the same time, having fun which is after all what going out is all about.

I don't actually think "Smells Like Booty" is much good either. I think it's better than "Smells Like Teen Spirit" but only for the first 30 seconds or so. Being brilliant for the first 30 seconds is the real curse of the bootleg I think.

Oh maybe you don't want to look at silly reasons people like things but indulge me, I find it compelling!

I am sorry if I offended. I agree with Gareth, but I'm trying to think of a remix of a song I liked where I thought the original was terrible and it's not the easiest thing in the world. I'm sure there must be some, for everybody, but they're not that common are they? Does anyone ever take that one snare and use it? Sampling I suppose but then we're getting into questions of when it stops becoming a remix and starts becoming a new song all over again. gah....

The best test case of this thing for me - and yeah it is R&B-over- rock bootlegging again so it fits your argument - is the Lisa's Got Hives track. One of my favourite bootlegs, never heard the original Lisa track but I really don't like the Hives track. Now since listening to the bootleg a lot I've gone back and yes, I like the Hives more now. But I still don't like them.

I think the bootlegs thing has unwittingly identified one of the big things I've stopped liking about rock. Listening a lot to hip-hop (and dance music to some extent) has sort-of trained me to listen to tracks as a beat+vocals. On this system a lot of rock has a good 'beat' but the vocals really let me down - especially stuff like the Hives where the only thing the vocals are doing is completely standard woah-yeah-rock stuff. So bootlegs are a dream for me from that point of view.

But can we speak of 'completely standard' hip-hop vocals as well? This is an interesting separation being drawn.

Personally I don't think anything of C. Aguilera and barely a bit of the Strokes. "A Stroke of Genius" almost redeems both.

Oh totally we can Ned - but i) I've got less bored of them; ii) I think they're generally less well established, i.e. hip-hop flow is still developing faster currently than rock vocalising is, and there's less old-skoolism manifesting itself in flow compared to beat.

boom selection have made a cd with 420 mp3's/mixes on it. rough trade are retailing it at 16 quid, and it's 5o plus hours long. 3 cd's.

it has EVERYTHING - all the good soulwax stuff (inc. 'hang the dj' the 2 hour illegal vers. of 'as heard on radio : 2 many dj's' ) and all the ace breezeblocks, xfm stuff, osymyso, frenchbloke, Sonof and freelance hellraiser stuff. basically it puts the tin hat on it all.

it 's barely begun i'm saying, as anyone who was there friday night at the rizla cafe glastonbury this yr. will attest.

boots will still rule when electro is barely remembered with a frown.

And in a lot of teen-pop (especially British teen-pop) the standardisation of vocal approach is even more noticeable. I'm not sure why I don't mind it in teen-pop where I mind it desperately in rock, either.

maybe pop haters get to think "it's ok to like DC now, it's ironic, haha, and sexy!".

But Ronan, isn't this point of view just the one we fought against in the ILM Pop Irony wars? ie not taking seriously people's reasons for liking things? Or rather, wanting those reasons to be SERIOUS, rather than, silly or any one of the thousands of other reasons people have for liking music.

Hmmm...because it sounds stodgy and old as opposed to shiny and new, Tom?

No, because it doesn't sound shiny and new - most teenpop isn't as upfront about its vocal processing as, say, Britney is. I think it's because the vocals seem to be doing different jobs: in teenpop the vocal is carrying the melody, in rock the vocal is often meant to be an amplifier for the energy of the music - the "Yeah!", "Come On!", "Alright!" style of singing. And this is why the standardisation of vocals in rock bothers me I think - because it seems standardised and hackneyed it dampens the energy in the music rather than amplifying it. Whereas the worst that happens with teenpop is that the vocalists sound bored or emotionless - that's still pretty bad but it doesn't feel like as much of a missed opportunity.

I'm bored with bootlegs right now. Except for I Wanna Dance With Numbers. Eurotrash pop is where its at, and they all sound like the vocals and backing don't go together anyway.

Is the Lisa's Got Hives one Lisa Left Eye over the Hives guitars yeah?

I mean is there any case of male vocals being stuck over a song which featured female vocals? It seems to be alot less common. Why can't the rock song (male) vocals be enjoyed in a new way so much if indeed the accapella is a different part in itself? I just think there's a big "i'm a silly prankster" element to bootleg making which drags it down. I'm not going to compare it to electro by the way, I never said it would be over by Halloween or something either anyway.

Yeah I guess disliking the reasons people like stuff isn't the best thing to be doing, who else does it? Is it uncommon?

Odd that Ronan should pick on the Dewaele bros. to make his point, given that most of their live set (and of 2 Many DJs does not consist of bastard pop / bootlegs.

As it happens, I like "SLTS", "SLB" and "B", and I think I like them all in different ways; not sure I can articulate clearly why this is the case tho'. Tom makes a point I was going to make about "Lisa's Got Hives". As I said in my Focus Group comments, I'm not even sure anymore if I've heard The Hives' original, but I will hear it differently next time. An even better example: check out the club mix (yes, there is one) of Shakira's "Underneath Your Clothes", marvel at what a great melody the chorus has, then go back and listen to the FM-radio friendly original with new ears.

Aside: Tom, you need to update the Boomselection link on NYLPM.

Another aside: which is the more radical stance for the bootleg fan - buying or not buying that 432 mp3s cd set?

And I agree with Sterling, too often they do sound like that. My brain just splits into listening to one or listening to the other. Soulwax isn't like this in too many places but many of the others are.

I don't think I WANT the reasons to be serious but is it so wrong to think someone likes something for a reason which to me is stupid? And the reason people get fucked off at non serious reasons is that they refuse to stand up and be counted. Someone liking something for a non serious reason can just spout cliches like "oh you're no fun" or "lighten up" and not make any sensible defence of their position. They can also persistently take digs at those who don't like their reason for being stuffy or keep using the old lie "you do like this, you're just denying you do, come on! have some fun!".

So if people without serious reasons for liking things stop doing all this then maybe people who dislike non serious reasons would stop eh?

Non serious reasons tend to just kill any discussion don't they?

That is not to say they can't be discussed, but all too often people with non serious reasons for liking things just go "aw come on it's great!" and as I said make personal comments about the person not liking the thing, I mean how many times have we seen "oh come on stop denying yourself" on one of the threads where some rock fan slates some pop song. Bah I'll leave this, the non serious people bring it on themselves 90 percent of the time.

Yeah but Ronan you've still not given any indication of why the reasons you're talking about are "non-serious". What would a "serious" reason for liking something be??

I guess anything that doesn't feel like it's based in irony. Anything that makes a genuine claim for the quality of the work rather than a "hey don't mock this, come on" type of thing. I may be dissecting tastes but this "oh come on you're no fun" attitude which I encountered in my earlier ILM days of disliking pop is the ULTIMATE dissection of tastes because to someone who likes "alternative" stuff it's what the whole fucking world is saying. I never felt like a tortured indie kid but I can see how someone would.

I think 12 cd types have more serious reasons for liking things because their reasons tend to be "I like this because it's good", "I like this because I like it" etc.

When I liked alternative stuff I never felt/noticed that at all I have to say - the slur was always "you're trying to be weird" not "you're no fun" - unless you actually refused to eg. dance to the pop music, but I got "you're no fun" when I refused to dance to indie music so you can't win really. (What I'm saying is that "you're no fun" is an activity-based attack rather than a taste-based one in my experience).

Certainly as a pop fan I don't expect people to like pop records. I don't feel I have much in common musically with people who don't, and I don't feel like I have much in common at all with people who don't on principle, but that's just me.

I've not heard a bootleg yet: they good, then?

Best journophrase of year award: Ronan "Fitzy" Fitzgerald for...

"Wet fetish".

Ronan does have a good point. It's the distinction between...how to put it?...between "Bah, I hate pop" "But why deny yourself the pleasure of pop?" and "Bah, I hate this pop song" "You're no fun, it's pop" "No, you don't understand, I HATE THIS POP SONG." I certainly haven't been perfect in noting and responding to this difference.

Thing is I don't dislike pop, in fact I've moved from neutrality towards liking, if only because the lines between pop and house become blurred so often. You're right I can't think of proper definitions for what is a serious reason and what isn't but I do know that it's alot harder to really like something and believe it's good than it is to really like something and paint yourself as frivolous and not really bothered in the process.

I guess maybe people aren't bothered, but then maybe they shouldn't say anything.

I just get frustrated by there being constant ways to slate the music I really love which are used by more people than just cranks and very few ways in which some other genres can be attacked or other styles of music can be attacked. I'm jealous I guess.

What my first paragraph says I guess is when you like dance music you constantly have to defend it (well if you're me anyway) and you constantly feel the need to fight about how other people like it, or what other people think, whereas when you like pop you can (a) assimilate yourself into the big ball that is everyone else and say "hey you're no fun" or (b)er.....not care because everyone likes it anyway and it's everywhere.

Is wanting to make the genre you like far bigger and more important than it currently is taking things too far, or is caring about idle criticism you know isn't fair? Bah I sound like CTCL with their "if you don't care fuck off" schtick now, but there you go.

(apologies for dredging up this debate again)

Is it ever even acknowledged that loving different genres, just like loving different things in life requires a different type of tolerance or a different way of thinking or something? Should I start a thread or is it a red herring?

How d'you mean?

Re: difft 'tolerance'?

I guess I have to ask.

1. Do you care about how the music you love relates and is related to other types of music?

2. If yes how does loving one thing affect the way you relate to others? Is this too linear? Does thinking more about one band or genre or whatever make you think about others you don't listen to actively in different ways?

I think everyone thinks that the types of music they believe in passionately get a raw deal, though. I mean you say "oh everyone likes pop and it's everywhere", whereas when I set up NYLPM the reaction I got was like, 'my goodness a novelty, somebody who likes pop' My experience was that because it was everywhere nobody really liked it.

There was this wide world of people who liked pop music but didnt write about music, and within the much smaller world of people who wrote about music liking pop was Not Done. And then of course I help carve out an even SMALLER world of people who write about music AND like pop music and people join in who don't and feel put-upon. It's an endless onion of taste-misery!

(i.e. we notice the people who are mean to the stuff we love more than we notice the people who love it.)

I think part of the problem with an individual pop song is that a lot of the time 'it's energetic and makes me happy' is the reason somebody likes it. So if X says I don't like it and Y says I love it, it's happy pop, it can look to X as if Y is saying ha ha you hate happy pop. When really this isn't the case.

I have no idea what you are talking about Ronan - but I'm very interested. Mebbe, gimme yr own answer to yr own question an' that might shed enough light fer me to answer myself. (Note: have been mind-numbingly writing ALL day).

Ah, thank you Tom, you phrased it better than I did with your end example there. :-)

I agree. But I also think even in the "so what music do you like" question, if you like pop you don't have to distinguish yourself, ie the conformity aspect is probably quite pleasant.

Ronan - it depends who's asking, it really does. "Pop" is a fantastically useful answer at a dinner party, it is a source of grief on most message boards.

Tom's "taste-onion" post was like a condensed history of the ILM pop-rock wars. And totally OTM.

i'm sorry, this is self-serving, but here are some mp3s of some bootlegs:

http://www.sleeve-notes.com/Music.html