The Manics return for a 'Greatest Hits' tour... does anyone care?

The Manics are pro-vivisection as well. Scumbags.

ned, just ans the question please.

Too lazy for proper punctuation

No it doesn't.

but the fast show did some sketches involving fat, pie eating bobbies in the first couple of series. not that funny as i recall as it seemed to rely on the false notion that fat people eating = inherently funny but this isn't the time or place for such ruminations

my answer to the question at hand is: probably, but they don't include myself

But I digress, at least you can out Richey's hypocrisy down to him being ever so slightly unstable. What excuse does Wire have for his utterly shit sound bites, crap words and very ropey political ideals? The guys has just about enough brain cells put on his eye liner properly the daft bastard. Major label socialist indeed.

No, it certainly doesn't. What are they?

Needless to say I still think it's a good album and don't need to defend it to you chumps - more songs should be called "the intense humming of evil" - as long as they didn't actually SOUND like said song which is quite ridic. FASTER is fantastic!

It IS a well written album. You can effectively take some of the songs, write them out and they actually 'work' as poetry.

Nicky Wire is so dumb that he makes Liam Gallagher look like Albert Einstein.

He is FAR from being dumb.

Is this the same Nicky Wire who calls himself a moralistic person and yet played a concert on behalf of one of the three biggest vivisection 'charities' in the UK and who allowed a member of his own band to proclaim that he didn't care of 'they killed 70,000 beagles every year for hairspray' and who still raises funds for animal torturers?

Is this the same Nicky Wire who claims to be against capitalism and yet is signed to a major label, tours stadiums, has a lead singer that hangs out at the Met Bar and admits to buying all the latest technological goods? And whose drummer owns two particularly big houses?

Is this the same Nicky Wire who says he's anti-establishment yet has accepted two Brit awards?

The same fellow who believes in free education so much that he admits to pissing away his time at university gambling his loans away and asking James to bail him out and who barely scraped a 2.2 pass in history.

The same guy who wrote 'the world is full of refugees just like and just like me'?

And the same fellow who blabs his utterly shite politics in the direction of gullible 14 year old kids who swallow it up without realising that Wire himself is a total dumb fuck.

Just curious.

Just because someone disagrees with yr moral system it DOES NOT make them hypocrites.

By supporting this industry (and I know of at least two Manics fanzine editors who dumped their stuff in the bin after finding out how ill informed the Manics were about this) Wire is showing himself to be someone who supports a horrific, profit driven industry - the sort he claims to be against. If he wants to support cancer research then I can supply him with charities that oppose his precious ICR on the basis of what they do and who research cancer through non-animal means. Before you buy a Manics CD I would encourage you to openly seek out the undercover documentaries and pictures of these labs to find out exactly what Wire 'supports'.

Thanks to people like my girlfriend who received an RSPCA award to do her masters in animal welfare, people like Wire and his dipshit opinions will soon be a thing of the past.

But I ask you again - how can Wire claim to be a socalist when he is signed to one of the biggest capitalist organisations in the world? Hypocrisy of the highest sort surely?

I mean, couldn't Wire volunteer his own body for this, thus sparing us any more crap songs such as 'Why so Sad?' in the process?

It might change your views...

I'm unsure why you don't think it is an absolute evil. Are you sure you've looked into it? Some of the stuff I've read and seen gave me nightmares. Not pleasant (or justifiable) at all...

http://www.shac.net/background.html (this is the best link for research on vivisection exposes incidently).

but surely one is about saving lives and the other is about torturing animals for sport.

One is about torturing animals for sport, the other is about torturing animals for profit.

far from being some sort of suicide martyr, Richey actually had conflicting opinions on almost everything.

You mean like everyone else on earth? I agree the "suicide martyr" thing is ridiculous, but no one except 15-year-olds believes in that anyway. Anyway Richey was certainly a more likable "sensitive poet martyr" than Tory-voting adulterer Ian Curtis or Jim fucking Morrison. Read some of his interviews, the guy was incredibly smart and witty. And he wouldn't have been caught dead sucking up to Castro.

BUT at the end of the day the guy still paid for a handjob in Bangkok (Little Baby Nothing - a song about male exploitation of women I thought) and said that he didn't care if 70,000 beagles died for his hairspray.

Likeable?

Pull the other one.

I can't really defend the Bangkok thing, except that he was a very sexually confused person. Remember that this is a guy who by his own admission had never had a relationship or been in love with anyone (at 27). While it may be reprehensible in many ways, you have to see the prostitute incident in the context of who he was. Anyway how is it particularly worse than the lurid groupie excesses of the likes of Led Zeppelin?

Looking back at what I've written I can see that 'likable' probably isn't the right word at all. But he'd definitely be interesting to talk to.

So by your reckoning a company that captures wild primates, ships them in transit for over 24 hours (in which many die) and which then tortures them for £££ is a 'useful service'? A company that, every year since 1997, has been shown in undercover tapes of being guilty of animal cruelty (and was successfully prosecuted for such) is 'useful'? Have you seen the footage of dogs shitting blood and being punched in the face because the happened to have been injected with toxins for a product already legally on the market but accepted for another test by HLS because of £££? No? Of course you've not because that would be researching something wouldn't it?

And what are these 'useful services'? A cure for cancer? 85% of which are lifestyle influenced? A cure for death? Old age? No - the 'useful services' are force feeding weed killer down puppies throats and if that's 'useful' to you then you must be a very sick fuck indeed.

Try supporting some companies that don't test and use your own head instead of the shit that's fed to you every day. If you still doubt me do your own research - Dr Greek, Henry Spira and Peter Singer (among many others) come to mind.

And Richey obviously DID support vivisection by playing a gig for Imperial Cancer Research (instead of a non-animal using cancer research charity of which there are many).

I'm leaving out the homophobia thing: I think you know fuck-all about sexual politics, and have demonstrated this a lot too often, but actually I think your outrage at being called on being a queerbasher is genuine, and that's a start.

You were called queerbasher because of the kind of 12-yr-old insults you much too quickly have recourse to, which pretty much undermine any line you want to take on Animal Rights, or any moral argument at all. Saying "You don't understand my radical politics because you are all stupid passive sheep" the moment someone disagrees with you suggests that YOU HAVEN'T USED YOUR HEAD reading Peter Singer either: you've swallowed him whole. Singer may be right or he may be wrong, but if you'd in fact THOUGHT about anything he said, instead of just absorbing it whole- cloth, you'd already have thought through all the counter-arguments coming up here, and be able to explain where they're wrong without going into super-panic mode and just lamely insulting people. You're not the only person in the world with principles, and as you grow up you will encounter people whose PRINCIPLES put them absolutely on the opposite side of the argument to you. People with brains and people with hearts, who totally don't buy your line: if you actually take your own politics seriously (if it's not just an adolescent badge of self-definition), you will learn to think of ways to take their principles AND their intelligence seriously and still argue them over to your side of the table.

Richey, jim morison and ian curtis all come across as 'flawed' human beings but then again who can really say they wouldn't fall into 'traps' or whatever when you live the kind of life that you get in rock bands. To come all morally superior when you sitting down in front of the computer when you haven't formed a band, haven't toured, haven't dealt with 'fans' and all that comes with being in a successful band is a mistake to say the least. I'm not trying to make excuses for their beliefs or what they said or did but i think that the whole pic isn't being looked at.

''You were called queerbasher because of the kind of 12-yr-old insults you much too quickly have recourse to, which pretty much undermine any line you want to take on Animal Rights, or any moral argument at all.''

well i thought Calum wasn't actually a real poster. All the things he said in previous threads and his insults...it was all so cartoonish that you couldn't take anything he said seriously. Nice to know he cares about something but the insults still come out, which is just the sort of thing that got me started on that sleeper thread.

Hands up if you've looked into this issue? HAVE YOU? Have you read/ debated both sides? Did I say 'well go and read Peter Singer's book Animal Liberation and, hey, all will be revealed?' No. I simply pointed you in the direction of a place to start. I'd advise you to read both sides of the vivisection debate (as I have) and become involved in whichever side you feel passionate about. After viewing some of the footage I've shivered through I owuld personally feel very sickened if you took a pro-view but at least it would have been researched. Judging from your ill-advised comments you are neither here no there, so next time you brush your teeth with Colgate and flush your loo with Domestos just remember that these companies torture to death 500 animals each day in UK labs alone, including wild caught primates, dogs, cats, horses, pigs, rabbits rodents and guinea pigs. If you want to see what happens in these labs contact me off forum (yes really) and I will nicely supply you with an address where you can obtain visual data for your own conclusions.

"It's all very well suddenly coming on all morally pompous and self- righteous, but on these boards you have often shown quite obnoxious and deeply ignorant contempt on these boards for (for example) non- teenage/non-pretty women, "neds" (trans: teens of difft class background to you), Americans and, well, sorry, the list is now quite long... "

Neds are not of a different class from me and how the fuck do you know my class anyway? If you must know I'm far from being from a wealthy or privilged background and one 'ned' I once knew had extremely wealthy parents but chooses to act like a racist thug out of his own choosing. Being a 'ned' is not a class issue and you will find that many neds come from a posh upbringing. I don't think I've ever taken the piss out of 'ugly women' (I believe I slagged off Cerys Matthews - oooh dear bad me) and the American thing was a joke which at least one postee from America contacted me off board to say they laughed at.

"I'm leaving out the homophobia thing: I think you know fuck-all about sexual politics, and have demonstrated this a lot too often, but actually I think your outrage at being called on being a queerbasher is genuine, and that's a start."

Hmm, of course I know fuck all about sexual politics. Don't speak down to me. And where were the 'hompophobic' jibes exactly? I said that it was 'lifestyle' and you said: 'Oooh don't describe it as a lifestyle you un-PC pig'. Look fuck off. As I've said, I have friends of a gay persuasion and as a young 18 year old I convinced a shy and introverted gay fellow to come out of the closet to his parents and friends, which took a lot for him to do and which he thanked me for in the long run. I'd like to hear of any involvement you've had in any cause instead of being a bedsit PC little asshole who takes your own urges out on people on a forum. You do not know me so don't try and lecture me about your own ideals of sexual politics. I bet you get offended by Camilla Paglia.

"Saying "You don't understand my radical politics because you are all stupid passive sheep" the moment someone disagrees with you suggests that YOU HAVEN'T USED YOUR HEAD reading Peter Singer either: you've swallowed him whole."

Blah blah blah. I would argue with some of Singer's politics, but I also mentioned Henry Spira and Dr Greek who I presume you are unfamiliar with. Again, please read BOTH sides of this debate before talking to me about a cause I dedicate my own personal time and money to. You will only lose.

"Singer may be right or he may be wrong, but if you'd in fact THOUGHT about anything he said, instead of just absorbing it whole- cloth, you'd already have thought through all the counter-arguments coming up here"

Any counter arguements so far (at least as far as I can see) have been very poor and been from a passive or couch potato point of view. If you want to argue pro-vivisection the go for it. I'd love to slaughter every one of your arguements. Really I would.

"and as you grow up you will encounter people whose PRINCIPLES put them absolutely on the opposite side of the argument to you."

You do seem to think I'm not travelled or educated don't you? YOU DO NOT KNOW ME. PLEASE REALISE THIS BEFORE PUTTING YOURSELF ON A HIGHER MORAL PLAIN. AND I'M NOT AN ADOLESCENT YOU DOPEY DOPEY CONDESCENDING ARROGANT LITTLE PRICK.

In closing - I have nothing against Julio and hope he realises my banter with him was well meaning, if a bit heated, but he's shown himself to be someone willing to take a joke and who is obviously passioante about lots of different styles of music. So apologies to any offense caused to the chap.

No offence caused. As i said before I've taken most of what you've said on music with a pinch of salt and I've had squabbles with a few ILM posters and I suspect you won't be the last. Hopefully you weren't offended abt some of the things I said too.

''Neds are not of a different class from me and how the fuck do you know my class anyway? If you must know I'm far from being from a wealthy or privilged background and one 'ned' I once knew had extremely wealthy parents but chooses to act like a racist thug out of his own choosing. Being a 'ned' is not a class issue and you will find that many neds come from a posh upbringing.''

but the way you bought that up in the oasis thread made them sound like they were from a lower class background (even if it wasn't intended as such).

Actually mark didn't pick up on the way he was talking abt the security guards at the venues, which i thought would better demonstrate the point mark was making.

you may be from the same class background but that still doesn't excuse you from what you've said on the Pulp and oasis threads.

''the irony is, most of the people on this board dislike the manics, and most are probably anti animal testing, yet somehow you've still managed to make a battle out of it. fair enough if this is your intention, but it seems counter-productive to me. i like debate where there is give and take, and blustering in taking potshots in every direction isn't something thats going to make people listen to your arguments''

Gareth has hit the nail on the head here.

Animal issues aside - I shall happily make an apology to those who feel that I may approached some issues with all guns blazing and a big gob. That's the beauty of forums - they allow you to do this, and I hope I guess I should prepare for the backlash of it.

I do hope that some will look into this subject however, and make up their own minds. I think animal welfare is an iportant issue.